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Storm in a tea cup?

20 replies

Forza14 · 28/03/2020 23:26

I thought I’d link this article written by a recently retired Professor of Pathology & NHS consultant for The Spectator.

I am in no way endorsing it as I have no idea whether he’s right or not but I think it’s an interesting discussion to have AND it made my anxiety about this terrible time lift a little bit.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think

OP posts:
Northernsoullover · 28/03/2020 23:39

Its an interesting article and I hope he is right. What makes me shudder is the fact that we need to turn places like the excel centre into a field hospital. We don't do that with flu. Is it because of the rate of infection? Flu cases are more staggered?

stella1know · 28/03/2020 23:40

Provenance check.

stella1know · 28/03/2020 23:40

But I will read it now.

CendrillonSings · 28/03/2020 23:41

Maybe try reading the daily casualty reports from across the world instead?

Forza14 · 28/03/2020 23:45

Why would I do that, Cendrillon? Are we only allowed to read one type of article now then?

OP posts:
stella1know · 28/03/2020 23:46

Nope, couldn’t get through it without a sneaky suspicion of a purpose of propping up the decisions made. There may be no link or friendship or shared views but the publication wouldn’t be my go-to source for any unbiased science reporting, not in this climate.

Forza14 · 28/03/2020 23:51

Sorry Stella, your post was gobbledegook to me.

It’s an article. Read it or don’t read it Hmm

God, the pretension on this site!

OP posts:
minipie · 28/03/2020 23:55

Yes, I agree with this

The moral debate is not lives vs money. It is lives vs lives. It will take months, perhaps years, if ever, before we can assess the wider implications of what we are doing. The damage to children’s education, the excess suicides, the increase in mental health problems, the taking away of resources from other health problems that we were dealing with effectively. Those who need medical help now but won’t seek it, or might not be offered it. And what about the effects on food production and global commerce, that will have unquantifiable consequences for people of all ages, perhaps especially in developing economies?

I’d add increased DV and child abuse to that list, and elderly or vulnerable people who die not because of the virus but because they don’t get their usual checks and care. I’d also add the deaths that will result from the years of austerity measures we will face to pay back the debts we are accruing.

The measures we are taking will cost lives. Some in the short term some in the longer term. And that’s before we start adding on non-fatal but serious impacts such as job losses, business closures, increased depression, divorce, interruption of education, cuts in state support in the future.

To justify all these negative effects, we need to be very sure that the death rate will otherwise be terrible. And how can we be sure, when no country in the world has a proper systematic, accurate and transparent testing and recording policy? It may be 5%. It may be 0.5%. Or even 0.05% since there now seem to be many catching it but showing no major symptoms. We need proper testing asap. Not just to help contain the virus but so that we know whether this course is justified.

minipie · 28/03/2020 23:59

stella it’s a shame the Spectator was chosen yes but if Boris was looking to plant supportive articles I suspect he’d have been a bit more subtle in the choice of publication.

SoapIsYourFriend · 29/03/2020 00:04

@stella1know out of interest where would be your go-to place that you would trust?

TheCanterburyWhales · 29/03/2020 00:14

There's nothing in that article that common or garden MNers aren't saying on the threads discussing the statistics and analysing each country.
It may well turn out that % of a country's population dying this year of Covid turns out to be very low.
But crashing the world's economy for God knows how long, exposing an already patched up health service to a situation that will bring it to breaking point, having children lose months of schooling and hundreds of thousands losing their jobs, knowing that if your elderly parents fall ill they won't be treated etc etc can hardly be described as a storm in a teacup.

Not in my world, anyway.

And that % of the population isn't a number. It's people. People that have been loved. People who can't have a proper funeral. People that no matter what their underlying health problems should not have died on those days, in those places.

minipie · 29/03/2020 00:27

Canterbury storm in a teacup is the OP’s phrase not the article writer’s.

The writer’s point is the opposite: that the consequences of lockdown are sever, so we’d better be sure that the consequences of not locking down are as severe as we think. He is saying people will also die from lockdown.

ViciousJackdaw · 29/03/2020 00:57

He is saying people will also die from lockdown

To be fair, I would like to murder my DH right now so he's probably right.

TheCanterburyWhales · 29/03/2020 08:58

Mini- yes, it was the OP's words I was quoting back to her.

LoveLongLife · 29/03/2020 09:15

The thing that jumps off the page to me about this article is, if it's no more of a drama than the flu, why are we opening hospitals with thousands of extra beds four thousand in just Nightingale hospital alone) and planning for mobile units to be parked as a temporary mortuary up and down the country?

If it's no worse than flu, then these measures are surely unnecessary and the mortuary would be especially distasteful if there are genuinely spaces in our normal morgs.

Something just doesn't add up here.

esjee · 29/03/2020 09:20

Ultimately, the aim at the moment is to find out the real impact it has. We do not know that. I don't know that. This writer doesn't know that. Until we do know that, given some of the worst case scenarios out there, it eleould be utterly neglectful not to take measures to slow the spread. It's temporary and I'm sick of hearing people whine about it.

NotEverythingIsBlackandwhite · 29/03/2020 11:05

Thank you OP. It is an interesting article.

minipie · 29/03/2020 11:13

Until we do know that, given some of the worst case scenarios out there, it eleould be utterly neglectful not to take measures to slow the spread. It's temporary and I'm sick of hearing people whine about it.

The problem with this is that the measures taken to slow the spread are themselves going to cause hardship to many and death to some. Some might say it’s utterly neglectful to take those measures without more accurate information about the true mortality rate.

RoseGoldEagle · 29/03/2020 11:30

The thing that jumps off the page to me about this article is, if it's no more of a drama than the flu, why are we opening hospitals with thousands of extra beds four thousand in just Nightingale hospital alone) and planning for mobile units to be parked as a temporary mortuary up and down the country?

This is exactly what I thought when I read it. I get his point about the cause of death being reported as coronavirus when it would have been ‘respiratory disease/pneumonia’ or whatever before. But even if the percentage that die does turn out to be small overall, if this is ON TOP of an already stretched health service then surely that’s the whole problem? The coronavirus in and of itself may not be the hugest problem ever, it’s just when you’re at 100% capacity already, even a small amount more will result in people not being treated and dying?

An interesting read though, thanks OP

Casino218 · 29/03/2020 12:26

Re read the article once you've had the symptoms of this vile virus then describe it as a storm in a teacup op!

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