A discussion on what's really allowed during lockdown

[OnTheEdgeOfTheNight]

The discussion linked below is about the English version of the bill. You may be surprised to see how the actual wording varies from what people believe

mobile.twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1243196424445136896

Then we get to freedom of movement restrictions. This is quite a bit more detailed than, and different to, PM's statement. Big difference I spotted is there is no restriction on number of times you can do each thing lawfully. You just need a "reasonable excuse" as defined

The Scottish legislation is here
www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/103/pdfs/ssi_20200103_en.pdf

I haven't checked Ni and Wales

I started a thread on this about an hour ago:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3862986-Coronavirus-legislation-the-rules

and no one wanted to talk about it! Maybe you will have more luck. Adam Wagner has been really informative about this.

Blue sorry I didn't see your thread. I just briefly saw from active threads that it's still coming up a lot.

With people being told here this week that they should make their dogs do the toilet indoors/ shouldn't have a dog if they live in a flat etc I thought it was worth sharing.

Of course we should be careful and ensure physical distance when outdoors.

@OntheEdge Oh no worries, my thread is gone from the front page.

I think David Allen Green had some helpful comments about the vagueness of some of the 'rules', and the potentially over zealousness of some police officers in enforcing them.

There was a woman on another thread left in tears after buying some milk because she was threatened with arrest by a passing police officer.

The police officers who had nothing better do do than follow lone walkers with drones are ridiculous.

This is a very challenging time for us all, and common sense, patience, respect and decency should be shown.

This is really reassuring, thank you. I have been taking my children out just once a day for about 20 minutes and was hoping we might be able to go out twice a day, for a bit longer. We steer clear of people, and it's so good for them as we live in a small flat with no outside space (not even a balcony). They are 1 and 3 and both very physical. I'm very happy following the rules but good to know we're not going to get into trouble if they're having a second run around on an empty patch of grass during the day!

Common sense seems to be missing for many on here unfortunately, in real life, where I live people understand they won’t catch the virus if they chat to their neighbor over the road from the safety of their drive 20 feet away or if they wave and call hello to a family member or friend who happens to be going to the local Spar at the same time and is walking on the other side of the road.

This isn’t supposed to be a misery fest with no pleasure whatsoever allowed, curtains closed and neglected pets.

Street parties which eschew social distancing are permitted, once weekly at 8pm, as long as they involve clapping and fireworks. HTH.

Thanks everyone, I feel the same about how overzealous some people are being. I'm hearing similar stories of people being stopped unnecessarily in my city, whilst there are areas where people are blatantly flaunting the rules yet no police presence there at all.

Thanks OP, I've just gone through Adam's feed.

Further down the line, he does state the new powers are the most powerful, possibly ever.

While there will be a mass of mitigating circumstances for people to challenge and there are some wonky edges such as you've quoted of Adam's, what stands out is the 'forcibly returned to your place of residence' Difficult for those experiencing street homelessness as it shows in the exemptions.

As an example, someone nips to their local shop, forgets a pint of milk, goes home and then leaves their home again to go to the shop for the milk, I'd see that being a reasonable excuse.

All of this aside, these are extreme powers that carry penalties and for some, a £60 fine (£30 if paid in 14 days) might not appear too harsh. Nevertheless, they should not be taken lightly.

I think there is the potential for a real problem with the continuing discrepancies between the government's message and the law.

I just saw a pushed message on twitter from the government - it gave the three reasons you could leave the house including exercise 'once a day'. So that is certainly the message being pushed. But it is not the law, and this is important.

I wouldn't want to see the law being made more onerous than it is. I also agree that having short, digestible pieces of guidance which strongly discourage contact between people is very important. I'm not sure however that the government has yet found the right balance between the two.

What I am confident in however is that the police can only enforce the LAW, and while they can offer guidance to people on not acting selfishly, they are not empowered to fine or otherwise prosecute outside of the legal provisions.

As an example, someone nips to their local shop, forgets a pint of milk, goes home and then leaves their home again to go to the shop for the milk, I'd see that being a reasonable excuse.

How is this a reasonable excuse? Its milk. It's not penicillin.

A pint of milk over a 24 hour period is not essential

As an example, someone nips to their local shop, forgets a pint of milk, goes home and then leaves their home again to go to the shop for the milk, I'd see that being a reasonable excuse.

I faced a similar situation today with bread and decided that going out again to buy bread is not reasonable, since it was my own fault I left it behind. To my understanding it's a general principle that you don't get any recompense or leniency for a situation of your own making.

On the other hand I feel the PM should have made it clear that going out to meet legal obligations is lawful. That is what sent me into a serious panic when the restrictions were first announced.

Our supermarkets here are still experiencing huge queues, made worse I know because shops are restricting the number of customers that they let in at any one time. But if everyone makes multiple trips to the shops either every day or even several times a week the shops are always going to be heaving aren't they? If we all only go once a week the shops are going to be less busy and therefore safer.

We'll end up being allocated times to go shopping and times to go for a walk because so.many people seem to have ants in their pants and just can't seem to stay at home.

Hearhooves the problem there is supermarkets still imposing item limits that force many shoppers to go more often than they normally would, because the supermarkets can't cope with increased demand. (And the bulk of the demand increase is from people acting reasonably ensuring they have supplies for a 2-week isolation, not from excessive stockpiling).

@PicsInRed Yep Because what the NHS needs right now its more admissions to the burns unit.

I go food shopping twice a week

But also i have to go to a paypoint to top up our key meter.

And our doctors surgery moved right out of town......VC.

No doubt some of those letting off fireworks would be the first t to complain about my shopping trips (no car) or having to pop to post office or corner shop to top up electric.

@safariboot Yes

Helena

PicsInRed is being sarcastic.

Yes i was agreeing with her. Sorry i should have made that clear.

safariboot

That might be part of the reason but then if they don't impose limits the selfish twats that cleared the shelves weeks ago will be back in force to do so again.

There's also the people that keep popping in for one or two things though because they're bored or the kids are off school so they're going in buying a sandwich or something. Honestly, around here you'd think it was school holidays. Nothing has changed for a lot of people. They're just carrying on as normal.

What are the police or government meant to do? Asking people to follow the rules hasn't worked so do they just give up? Not bother?

Ah, sorry, Helena.

Well im guessing it might be an idea to keep an eye on the known drug dealers. Because taking a wild stab in the dark here im guessing they would be pretty determined to carry on as usual and still meet up. Bet they wont be staying at home.

No worries Its late

I've just read an article in The Times which details how Google will be able to provide the authorities with details of an individual's movements.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-authorities-can-use-mobile-phone-tracking-0khmg0rmp

I was watching a YouTube video and it explained that's how Singapore and South Korea managed it. Not necessarily Google, I think they used mobile phone tracking but they tracked and quarantined anyone who came into contact with an infected person.

The MN stasi are just loving being able to be a dick to someone because they've decided that milk isn't essential.

Anything about those who can't work from home?

I'm a cleaner and due to clean a customers house next week for 4 hours. I desperately need the money and I'm not eligible for an government assistance. I plan to walk and avoid public transport as well as keeping a distance from my customer in her home. I'm not sure if I'm even allowed to go, but I have no other choice.