Lock up the old people!

[SD1978]

Deliberate title as there are so many on Covid-19 and I'd like mine answered.... if the main issue is that those over 60 are at highest risk of negative outcomes, and requiring actual hospital treatment, why has it not been suggested a mass self isolation of this demographic in the early stages, or now? Statistically, a younger adult or child requires no treatment, and can and do recover at home with no medical intervention and after they test negative recover well . The health care system in Italy has been brought to,its knees with 60+ age presentations and this is why the ICU's are making some horrendous decisions through necessity. If we advised people for a month, who were above 65- to properly self isolate the in patient impact would be drastically reduced. Or am I missing something obvious.

The @longearedbat - title was deliberately provocative. I'm talking purely from the stats and information coming from Italy. The strain on health services is predominately from adults of a certain age. The ICU's are making decision regarding who lives and dies, within this age group, because they are the ones presenting and dying. If you don't want to have a doctor make that decision, as to whether you are a more worthy candidate than the next one who comes in with the same symptoms, this is the only way for that to happen. I'm aware people have free choice. I'm aware the practicalities of this are nil. I'm aware it won't happen. From a logic stand point, looking at who are currently mostly utilising acute and ICU care beds, and looking purely at the numbers and ages of those who are finding themselves in This position, that's where the question comes from. Those under 70, and then again those under 50, so far do not require intervention or ventilation in any great numbers. The predicted deaths are predominantly within the over 70's then moving down to 60's and 50's with co morbidities. If this goes the way it's predicated, most Mumsnet users under 50 will lose a parent or a close family member within this age range, if not more than one. 'We' will be fine, our children will be fine. Why would we not make arrangements for those with the most vulnerability and most likely to die? I will be fine (most likely) and accordingly, I'm not particularly concerned. My parents fall firmly in the 70's with respiratory history and most likely would die. Why would I not try to persuade them to self isolate when they will most likely have the most negative outcome?

My mother says she would rather die from this than from cancer or Alzheimer's. Her biggest fear is ending up in a home, with dementia.

And I'm aware that life doesn't stop, and the practicalities of this 'approach' are nil. But it seems that closing down schools and nurseries, which seems to be inevitable, is also pointless. I'm also aware that once you reach a certain (any) age you don't suddenly have the right to make your own decisions taken away, and that many people (my parents included) are working still into their late sixties and seventies. It's from a non emotive, decreasing strain on resources musing perspective. Less resources used if less people 70+ catch it.

My parents are doing this OP.

I assumed the gov was hoping that anyone who is older and at risk would decide to self isolate where possible as opposed to telling everyone to self isolate.

Duchessofblandings your point is well made. If people are doing vital jobs which support others then self-isolation becomes a much more difficult balancing act. But if older people are not working, or providing care to others, doesn’t it seem a sensible idea to reduce pressure on the NHS by self isolating if they can?

There are young adults in italy who are very ill due to CV do you suppose all adults should be locked away too?
60 is not old how bloody patronising. Seeing as they gov upped the retirement age most people are still working till nearly 70 what are they supposed to live on? What happens to thier pension if they lose thier jobs? Do you think they will just walk into.another job in what a month? two months? a year once this all gets sorted out?

Yeah lets tell all the Drs and Nurses and police and people in every other job in the country that you wont miss until they arent there just to take a month off work. Who is going to serve you in shops, restaurants, drive your trains or buses, collect your rubbish, make all the goods you rely on to be freely available, run companies, etc etc ad infinitum?

Do you plan on rounding those "old folks" up.and herding them all into quarantine? Or sending people round to ensure they all stay home? I think after 60 years of life experience they can make their own life decisions.

What fabulous qualifications do you have to determine the lives of a huge part of the population?

We don’t all sit at home waiting for Murder She Wrote, you know.

Indeed, though I have advised my parents, who are late 70s and not in wonderful health atm, to do just this. Well, or a different shit programme, obviously. Me and my siblings are skyping and dropping groceries, and the community and church activities they volunteer with are cancelled for the moment.

In my experience, though large extended family and ILs with lots of people in their 70s and 80s in poor health, but living independently the pressure to self-isolate is having to come from their children and grandchildren's generation. My parents clearly think we're being completely mad not to drop off our seven year old with them -- we're in Ireland and schools are closed.

I agree with you OP. This whole business has shown me that a lot of people suffer from a logic fail when you point out the obvious. It's not bloody ageism, it's the sensible thing to do IF YOU CAN!
And saying that older people should isolate much as reasonable is NOT the same as saying all people over sixty are retired and useless! On the whole though, people over 65 ARE retired, they don't HAVE to go to work, they are the most at risk and they should think carefully about the way they are going to live for the next 6 months. Personally I would rather be bored for 6 months than dead.

My parents are isolating but then they live in a country where everyone is isolating and people and the government is socially responsible.

Semi-skimmed milk

“ But if older people are not working, or providing care to others, doesn’t it seem a sensible idea to reduce pressure on the NHS by self isolating if they can?”

Yes, eminently sensible. Sweeping statements though are generally not wise and certainly don’t encourage younger people to think as carefully about their societal responsibilities as they ought to.

In Portugal, visits to care homes have been stopped for a week already.
Neighbours are also offering to take groceries to the elderly.

All the over 70s I ever interacted with throughout my whole life proved to be incredibly wise, experienced, capable and (mostly) aware of their limitations when it comes to personal safety and the well-being of their loved ones. Let’s not underestimate them. They are more than capable of making their own correct decisions based on official advice.
Although, I was surprised how many pensioners were out in force yesterday late afternoon in a local supermarket.

Most people I've seen hoarding are older people. I suspect they're preparing to stay at home for weeks. And they should.

Duchessofblandings

Agreed

The problem is that many elder people need support from younger people, if it goes rampant among the young, inevitably it will spread to the elderly.
Particularly those who live with their children's families or in care homes, or need meals delivered, etc

Mum (good health) 92, and her husband (bad health) 86 are in a care home which has just stopped all visitors. Good.

MIL and FIL both 86, and both in poor health, are pretty much self isolating at home. We have bought them a counter top freezer and had delivered a load of Cook ready meals. Good

They are trying to not add strain upon the health system if they get poorly.

They also all have advance directives. Yes, this might be upsetting, but even without CoronaVirus, their intentions are that they will not accept resusitation/heroic measures to prolong life. They are all pretty pragmatic, and would definitely not want to deprive those younger than them of medical help. They are already all well past their "normal" life span, and actually, if you go on the elderly boards on MN, you will see that most are not interested in extending life in poor health. It's sobering, but true.

I agree OP. If you know you are vulnerable, surely it makes sense to protect yourself. Leave the masses to it.

I’m 62 and don’t have any health conditions but DH has high blood pressure and asthma but is 59 so I should be locked up then but DH is fine to go out

I think all 'at risk' people and their households should isolate as much as possible.

I think all key workers, should social distance.

Everyone else, crack on. Keep schools open, keep business going, build some immunity.

We are self isolating our family as we have 2 at risk members.
Neighbours, local businessess have been amazingly supportive.
We will stop self isolating when there is capacity (bearing in mind incubation/testing time lag) in the NHS that we can be certain we could get treated.

My dad is in his 60s and currently gallivanting around South America with his latest girlfriend.

Couldn't lock him up if I tried. But then I wouldn't want to.

My mother says she would rather die from this than from cancer or Alzheimer's. Her biggest fear is ending up in a home, with dementia.

My DM did die with (not from) dementia. It was horrible, heartbreaking, and I know she would have said exactly the same, if she were here now.

I totally get that attitude - and it's a fascinating angle on peoples individual choices and right to choose. Although now is probably not the best time for a reasoned debate ...

My mum is 82 and capable of making her own decisions. She's seeing a few people, popping to corner shop if she needs to, but has cancelled going to a few larger group activities.
I think she's got the balance right.

I don’t think anyone on this thread is suggesting older people shouldn’t be making their own decisions. But the point is, many people just do not have enough information about what is happening. For example in my area people keep saying “we have no cases here” whilst the reality is we have no confirmed cases, and by the time we do have confirmed cases the spread will have started. There is a lot of uncertainty and misinformation making it difficult for people to make informed choices.