Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

To be very concerned that the UK is not yet closing schools or introducing other quarantining measures, despite clear evidence that in 1918, it reduced total deaths by as much as 50% in cities that

215 replies

effingterrified · 08/03/2020 21:41

The 1918-19 Spanish flu pandemic infected a third of the planet’s population and killed an estimated 50 million people. The number of Americans who died of the Spanish flu was greater than the number of Americans killed in both World Wars. However, not all US cities suffered as badly as others. Research published in 2007 (at a time of heightened interest due to the avian flu outbreak) explored how cities across the US had responded in 1918, and the impacts this had had on mortality rates.

St Louis and Philadelphia provide good examples of how different approaches to public health led to radically differing outcomes. In Philadelphia, where the disease struck in September, authorities were slow to realise the threat posed by the virus, and allowed large public gatherings, including a citywide parade, involving 200,000 people in support of a World War I loan drive, to take place as planned. In four months, more than 12,000 Philadelphians died, an excess death rate of 719 people for every 100,000 inhabitants
.
In St Louis, on the other hand, two weeks before Philadelphia officials began to react, the highly-experienced Health Commissioner, Dr. Max Starkloff, insisted that the city cancel all public gatherings, from football games to Halloween parties, close all schools for ten weeks, and even station police officers in department stores to keep people from lingering. St Louis made the mistake of reacting to an initial fall in cases by lifting controls, leading to a second wave of the illness; however controls were immediately reinstituted.

Excess deaths in St. Louis were 347 per 100,000 people, LESS THAN HALF the rate in Philadelphia. Early action appeared to have saved thousands of lives.

The 2007 studies used mathematical models to show that such large differences in death rates could be explained by the ways the cities carried out prevention measures, especially in their timing. Cities that instituted quarantine, closing schools and banning public gatherings and other such procedures early in the epidemic, had peak death rates 30 percent to 50 percent lower than those that did not.

A study examining the course of the epidemic in 23 cities across the US found that San Francisco, St. Louis, Milwaukee and Kansas City, Mo., had the most effective prevention programs, and time was of the essence. If restrictions were introduced too late or lifted too early, success rates declined substantially.

OP posts:
Hoik · 09/03/2020 00:00

you'd better figure something out soonish, because schools WILL be shutting within weeks.

Yes. They WILL. For the Easter bloody holidays.

Kateplaysrugbyinmydreams · 09/03/2020 00:00

Every medical professional I've spoken to agrees with the op. We will hear much less about the unreasonable panic blah blah when the ICUs are full - by about Tuesday next week I expect.

effingterrified · 09/03/2020 00:02

Hoik - JFC, are you this much hard work in real life too?

Ditto.

OP posts:
Slinkymalinky1 · 09/03/2020 00:03

I'm assuming all the posters wanting school closures are either not working or have employers that will pay them to stay at home to look after their children for weeks on end? There are people who would loose their jobs, not able to pay their rent, buy food etc. Poverty kills more people than Coronavirus. That's not to mention the struggles we'd have actually getting food from shops, NHS healthcare etc if the country goes on lock down. It's not about just saying 'oh sod the elderly' the elderly would be stuffed anyway if the workers aren't out there actually working because they're at home with their kids, probably starving'Cos they can't afford to eat! Bigger picture! And yes I know school isn't childcare, but realistically it enables the population of parents to go to work

AutumnRose1 · 09/03/2020 00:04

OP “ That's not a remotely normal response“

Neither is the horrifying overpopulated globally connected world we live in, woth floating Petri dishes as holidays. Aeroplanes travel as normal, going every day to transport hordes of people, and therefore viruses. .Not remotely normal.

If you survive, would you like to have a job to go back to? Hysteria could cause a lot more damage than the actual virus.

Why isn’t banning international travel on your list of actions to take? I get a strong sense the people freaking out about this are the people who think it’s terrible that I don’t really go abroad.

Slinkymalinky1 · 09/03/2020 00:07

And the full ICUs? All the ICU nurses and doctors I know have young children, they'll be no ICU to speak of, they'll all be at home with their kids 🤷‍♀️

cdtaylornats · 09/03/2020 00:08

Why shut down schools now, they close for Easter in 3 weeks anyway.

Ellapaella · 09/03/2020 00:09

I know what I'll be doing, I'll be at home with my children looking after them as I have already been advised by employer (the NHS) that I will be entitled to do if schools close.
The care and safety of my children comes before my job I'm afraid.
So let's hope that the school closures are more important than keeping hospitals up and running.

Slinkymalinky1 · 09/03/2020 00:11

I work for the NHS, no word of being paid to take time off, if I get paid, bring it on!

Jumpsintotheabyss · 09/03/2020 00:12

Op I've not read the whole thread and I totally agree.. I feel like a sitting duck waiting for the chain of transmission to reach me and my dc and take us down.

It seems utterly ridiculous to me to be in this position. I feel like my life isn't my own, I can't do the best for my dc... I'd like to pull my dc out latest next week. Preferably Friday. And sit this out during easter. And then see where we are. Neither dc is at critical point school wise.
Dh could carry on working, his office is tiny, he can also work from home, I can't...
My dd suffers with viral wheeze at this time of year. I'm very worried about her and it.

Why can't we be given options, and let us know it's without penalty.

Hopefully Italy is pushing the descion makers on

Mintychoc1 · 09/03/2020 00:14

People complain bitterly about not being able to get GP appointments. How much harder will it be when the GPs are all at home with their kids?
Just because corona virus is causing illness and death, it doesn’t stop people getting cancer, depression, heart disease, diabetes etc.
I just think that calling for blanket school closures is not joined-up thinking.

Ellapaella · 09/03/2020 00:15

@Slinkymalinky1 I have no idea if we'll get paid - they haven't actually issued any information on that yet, simply that they will have to allow us time off to look after our kids if schools close. Nothings been said in my hospital yet about whether it would be paid or unpaid leave.

Slinkymalinky1 · 09/03/2020 00:22

I'd be very surprised if the NHS pay us. I was being facetious. I'd be stuffed personally. I have a mortgage, bills and food to buy and pretty sure I'm not alone in that. I think my kids would be more at risk of poverty than the Coronavirus. Then there's the staff down at my place of work. It's not just NHS workers though, it's the whole infrastructure. All sounds lovely having a couple of weeks off with the kids, but if your local hospital, gp surgery, supermarket, fire station, police station is depleted, then we have a bigger problem

Nancydrawn · 09/03/2020 01:06

I think a far more effective quarantine would be one for those in vulnerable populations.

Last I checked, the morbidity for under 10s was 0% and for under 30s was .2%. For those over 80, it was nearly 15%.

I understand the fear of youth as carriers. But if we put community measures into providing safe delivery of goods, services, and economic supplements for all those over 65 and anyone with a preexisting vulnerability, we can do significant and immediate good without paralyzing the services that are most in need.

Finally, comparing it to the Spanish flu is pretty useless. Both medicine and infrastructure (including international travel) are entirely different. Also, the Spanish flu most affected those between 20 and 40, with a significant impact as well on those 10-20. The old were largely spared. This made educational quarantines far more important, as you can imagine.

That said, I'll be entirely unsurprised if schools are closed in the next fortnight.

lilgreen · 09/03/2020 06:48

Didn’t Boris initiate the production of a legal document to ensure everyone gets paid if in quarantine last week?

AuntieStella · 09/03/2020 07:18

I don't know if it's been activated yet, but the intention is that quarantine/isolation in line with PHE advice should count for sick pay.

Most employers are doing so. I don't know if they are planning further measures to compel errant ones. That (and other measures) might come out after today's meetings.

SachaStark · 09/03/2020 07:31

I highly doubt that document will take into account zero hours workers or the self-employed.

Tortoiseontheloose · 09/03/2020 07:33

My DS was unable to play football against another school last week. His school has several children off, as they went to Italy over half term. So the opposing school made the decision not to play them.

The children did not return to school after the trip but they are still out and about and so are their family member.

Our county has three cases so far, the council is saying they all went to Italy recently - but they will not release info on the area they live in.

My DS is going to school but I am a little nervous. Not for him, but for younger DD and myself we we have asthma.

Although, DD has a flu like virus about a month ago - but not quite as severe as flu. She had to have three nebulisers over three days though (and has never needed them before, just inhaler). She didn’t have an infection though, just an awful cough and temp - the cough was causing her to vomit as it was so forceful and that was making her short of breath, plus she had a temp and swollen glands and was exhausted.

She would be tested for Coronavirus if she had those symptoms now I think. DP and I had it too and DP had a week off work and I a few days - so part of me wonders if it could have been around for longer, or if that it not possible.

SachaStark · 09/03/2020 07:34

Also, currently watching the former editor of the Sun on GMB. He’s advocating anyone who suffers from COVID-19 to sue the Chinese government Hmm

SachaStark · 09/03/2020 07:35

Are you in Cornwall, @Tortoiseontheloose? I am, and the number of cases in the county matches.

Hoik · 09/03/2020 07:55

I highly doubt that document will take into account zero hours workers or the self-employed.

Or people who can't afford to be on statutory sick pay which is lower than their usual pay.

She would be tested for Coronavirus if she had those symptoms now I think. DP and I had it too and DP had a week off work and I a few days - so part of me wonders if it could have been around for longer, or if that it not possible.

There are quite probably a lot of cases going unreported, particularly those at the mild to moderate end of the spectrum. Around 80% of people will have a mild to moderate case, not all of them will develop pneumonia and not all will require medical treatment or even medical advice as they will be able to self-care at home. Around 15% will develop a more severe case but again not all will require hospital treatment and not all will develop pneumonia. Around 5% will develop very serious symptoms and will require intensive medical treatment/support. Given that the majority will fall under the mild to moderate category it is entirely plausible that there are lots of cases flying under the radar. I know of a few people who have "the flu" or have recently recovered from "the flu". One of them had returned from an affected country but before it was advised that everyone returning from there should self-isolate and the others are all people who have had contact with this person. It really could just be the flu that they have/had but in terms of timing, risk criteria, and symptoms it is equally as likely to be COVID-19.

effingterrified · 09/03/2020 08:58

In Italy, where a quarantine is under way, I believe that medical staff have had all leave cancelled. I don't know who is looking after their kids, maybe as Italy has more tight knit families, grandparents or other relatives are doing this?

If medical staff don't want to work I guess they'll lose their jobs.

Personally I'd rather avoid the illness spreading in the first place than allow it to spread just so the doctors and nurses don't have to take time off for childcare. Prevention is better than cure.

I also find it hard to believe that ALL medical staff have young children - are there really no medical staff who have no kids or older kids?

OP posts:
effingterrified · 09/03/2020 09:05

I think the number of people on the breadline is a huge problem and read today that charities are putting in place plans to feed kids when schools are closed, due to the numbers that currently rely on school lunches for their main meal of the day.
.which us a horrifying indictment of our society.
What is not in doubt is that schools WILL be closing, whatever certain ignorant posters on this thread would like to happen.

It's a case of when not if.

And all the research shows the earlier the better is necessary to save lives - 2 weeks earlier = 50% of lives saved.

OP posts:
WorriedAboutMom · 09/03/2020 09:11

I agree with all your points OP.

TheHagOnTheHill · 09/03/2020 12:45

How long do schools close for though?
Closing schools will affect NHS workers as so many are women and mostly childcare falls on them.
Even the f there is a delay closing school some organising could happen.Secondary school children could be enrolled to baby sit for example.
Hospitals are inadequately prepared,not all front line staff have much information of the hospital's plans,or done mask fit testing.
I am resigned to the fact that I will get it as a nurse.

Swipe left for the next trending thread