At what point does Hamas fail to govern if Gaza City falls?

[mids2019]

Every time we hear about the war in the media Hamas are always providing information as presumably some sort of functioning government. The question is when do you officially say there is no government in Gaza and the regime has fell.

For instance it would have been absurd for the Nazis to claim to be the governing party of Germany after the fall of Beriln so does a similar logic exist in Gaza?

I know there are probably a few posters who secretly want Hamas to continue as a governing body as the valid part of 'resistance ' but for the peace living world the fall of Hamas should be greeted with satisfaction. The question is when does Hamas fall?

Interesting question.

It seems like they will just carry on refusing to surrender so it does make you wonder how this war will actually end. They are the only military I know of where they don’t seem to care how many civilians get killed or how much land gets destroyed because it’s all good propaganda for their extreme ideological cause.

I hope I’m wrong and Hamas do agree to release all the hostages, disarm and leave Gaza before Gaza city gets destroyed too with the inevitable human suffering & death. But if they don’t - does the war go on indefinitely or as you say, at a certain point is it just accepted that the regime has fallen and no longer rules Gaza. At which point a new governing body could be bought in to run Gaza - perhaps a coalition from the Arab world as has been suggested.

Good question. I suppose it is not so much a matter of why has Hamas not surrendered as how has Isreal with all its might still not defeated it. I do wonder how it is possible that Isreal have turned the Gaza Strip into a pile of dust but still have not removed Hamas. I don’t visualise the tunnels being equipped with the required technology needed to run a state from below ground. How does that work? Even after the inevitable ground invasion and settlements pop up in Gaza, will Hamas still be in power?

The IDF could have completely wiped out Hamas in Gaza by now but of course that would have come with a much higher rate of civilian deaths.

I think what’s most problematic is that the Hamas network will still exist even if they literally flattened all of Gaza. They exile Hamas prisoners to other countries when they are freed form Israeli prisons and there are countries/people who are willing to support/fund them. Even now, I’m not sure Hamas can be deemed a governing body in Gaza - they are seemingly providing nothing for their people and Israel have taken much of the territory. They are a group of rebels, basically, fighting for their cause (this is not me excuses or supporting them, I’m just stating that they’re not like a nation’s army) and I believe they will do this until the very end. Whether that’s when all of Gaza is gone or in 10 years time. As with AQ, ISIS or other comparable groups, I’m not sure you can destroy it. But you can take their power and make it hard for them to recruit.

I found this a deeply disturbing yet helpful article about the sophistication of the Hamas tunnels.

www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/GAZA-TUNNELS/gkvldmzorvb/

I suspect the 'organisation ' is so fragmented now, whether they surrender or not is irrelevant.

Some cells would agree to it, some wouldn't. Some will join other similar armed groups. At ground level I suspect that is more a resistance ethos for many, rather than formal membership.

It's hard to know what's going on right now with Hamas. Are they actively engaging in fighting? Because I'd expect to hear of more IDF deaths. I never hear about return fire with 2 way battles, just the IDF shooting people and dropping bombs. If civilians got caught in a 2 way firefight, or the IDF shot Hamas who were actively shooting at them, then we'd hear about that, and we don't. Theres the very occasional rocket fired into Israel and intercepted, but tiny numbers.

I'm not saying they've turned to peace, or are necessarily no longer a threat, but their absence does raise questions to me. And if they are no longer engaged in active fighting with the IDF, then what is going on.

Is there any evidence of current 'fighting' as opposed to the IDF doing all the killing?

And if there's not substantial actual fighting, what would surrender even mean on the ground?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/sgt-first-class-amichai-oster-24-us-israeli-quiet-hero/

There are soldier deaths in Gaza but rather irritatingly they are underreported. I would think the IDF have to make slow progress through urban areas with Hamas trying to use guerrilla tactics to cause casualties. I just wonder if you can call these small groups of fighters an army as such.

As far as governance goes the situation must be complex and it is such a pity Hamas won't formally surrender and allow some sort of transition of government.

Well they haven't turned Gaza into a pile of dust or destroyed all the tunnels for a start. The tunnel network is enormoud. If they had, do doubt they would have defeated Hamas.

Ultimately Hamas fails to govern in Gaza when the civilian population no longer supports them and recognises that the only way to peace and prosperity (assuming that they actually want this over martyrdom) is the removal of Hamas.

This conflict is unique in that Hamas actually want civilian casualties as it boosts their cause in the liberal West. Meanwhile many Gazan civilians either continue to support Hamas or encouraged by Western liberals blame Israel for all of their problems.

if the objective is truly to stop the deaths of innocent Gazan civilians then the protests in the West should be focused on calling for the removal of Hamas.

In what way do you think Palestinian people are actively supporting Hamas? As in, what evidence do you have that they’re no just a group of displaced people being moved around a tiny war zone?

Protesting for Hamas to surrender is like telling Israel not to destroy any buildings during a war. It is totally unrealistic. Hamas are terrorists. They are willing to die for their cause. They aren’t going to choose diplomacy and just step down. In my opinion, they will fight until every member in Gaza is dead. The focus and responsibility is on Israel because they are the only grown up in the room - unfair? Yes. But that’s what happens when a western democracy go up against a terrorist organisation. It’s not a level playing field. Terrorists have no rules and western democracies have to try to follow the rules, at least to model why we all shouldn’t just act like terrorists.

So you can put your faith in Hamas doing the right thing or, in my opinion, you can be realistic and realise that as unfair as it may be, Israel have to be different to them. They have to prioritise civilian lives and show humanity toward the people in Gaza. If they continue not to do this, they are purely recruiting for Hamas. Angry, displaced people are vulnerable to terrorism. Especially when they are surrounded by them. Show them some humanity - feed them, provide shelter, don’t dismantle their healthcare system, don’t talk about them in a racist way. Then, maybe there’s a chance for peace.

For me, Hamas are defeated when there is another ruling power in Gaza.