What’s the alternative to Netanyahu’s government?

[PaxAeterna]

Perhaps somebody well versed in Israeli politics can explain. If there was an election who is most likely to gain power? Is there more moderate realistic alternative?

This isn’t something being discussed by media in the west at all.

Unfortunately Israel has PR and this should be a bloody salutary warning to those of us in the UK who want it.
Most of the Israeli people are left leaning, tolerant and secular but there is are enough far right ultra frum AND illiberal Arab Muslims in the population to get a few elected. They then hold all the cards as the moderates scramble around to form a government and start wooing them. Hence the illegal settlements and the ferocity of the war.
Bibi is at the heart an ultra pragmatist (or was….) and will do whatever is needed for what he thinks is for the best for Israel, and he will happily break bread with people he has nothing in common with in order to remain in power and do what he thinks is best.
PR governments stagnate and are unwieldy and if a good two state solution is to be reached I honestly think Israel will
need electoral reform.

Good thread @PaxAeterna but all the while you've got people wanting you and your people dead, how do you provide a moderate response?

Yes, PR is a problem is Israel because too many lunatics, on all sides, get in.

As a Jew what I'd like to see is a government as committed to atonement and reparation as we got in Germany post WWII and in post Apartheid South Africa. But I'm not aware of any such politicians waiting in the wings.

Most of the Israeli people are left leaning, (tolerant and secular) @Mayve

That's simply untrue. Over the past 30 years support for the left in Israel has fallen dramatically. Public sentiment has moved over to the right.

https://www.swp-berlin.org/publications/assets/Comment/2023C05/images/2023C05IsraelsIlliberalCoalition002.png

Graph illustrating my previous post.

Unfortunately having neighbours who insist on lobbing rockets in your direction on a regular basis and a nearby nation state intent on your destruction will probably harden the hearts and minds of even the most liberal....

Yes, how can you negotiate with that.

I think that's quite a simplistic take on the PR electoral systems. There are over 90 countries using PR worldwide, to suggest it is the electoral system that results in far right extremists in government is disingenuous. PR is considered the most democratic system worldwide. There are though different systems used that all come under the PR umbrella

There are enough far right ultra frum AND illiberal Arab Muslims in the population
They get elected and Netanyahu chooses to form a coalition with them to get into government.

They vote right leaning because those are the parties strong on defence, and Israelis feel under existential threat
Most Israelis are socially liberal.

PR is considered the most democratic system worldwide.
I'm wondering how you come to that conclusion? Who has decided that and what authority do they have? Which PR system are you referring to as there are several different ones?

There are lots of ways in which PR can be profoundly undemocratic, and Israel is a good example of that. e.g.where extremists make deals to keep a party in power but there is no accountability for those deals.

I only visited the country a few times, work purposes, and short visits only but that ties in with the impression I picked up..

Socially it can be very very liberal but scratch the surface and you sense the steeliness.

Priority number one is national survival..

I've read up on different rankings from different sources and it tends to come out on top. Of course that's not conclusive which is why I said it is "considered to be" not that it was. I referenced in my post that there are a number of different systems under the umbrella of PR no need to repeat that back to me.

PR may work in some countries (tends to lead to stagnant governments who struggle to effect change) but I would tender that Israel is a special case at the moment.

I'm still not sure exactly who considers it 'more democratic'. The electoral reform society does, obviously. Lots of countries who use various PR systems do rank highly in various rankings linked to being functioning democratic societies but it seems to me people argue a lot about what system is best and how democratic each really is. Effective democracy is about other things too like level of political engagement, civic education, free press, which affect how the democratic will of the people is exercised and how you stop extremists have disproportionate and therefore undemocratic influence.

I think you're probably right. Its widely recognised that societies at war behave differently to those at peace, and its human nature to some extent.

They can't afford to be complacent, but neither can any other minority in that region. War on home territory is a fading memory for most of Western Europe. Scandinavia and former soviet bloc countries are a little twitchier. Imo of course.

I'm still not sure exactly who considers it 'more democratic'.
Maybe I've used the wrong terminology rather than more democratic it should be a better ranked electoral system. I've been a voter in a fptp system and a pr system and as a voter I felt my voted had more clout and went further in the PR system I voted in. I would be very conscious of what a privilege the right to vote is and would always use my vote but the fptp system really left me feeling there was little point because of the constituency I was in.
My initial response on this was to a poster that was very negative about the system and I was challenging that. At the end of the day if voters feel their vote can mean something and make a change that is what matters most and leads to more active and engaged citizens, apathy is not good for any democracy.

Yes, I agree, that is one of the main arguments for PR. But the flip side, if you like, is disproportionate influence of parties you don't support because they too have a voice.

Ah to a point but most voters are pretty clued up on who the parties are going to go into coalition with if they need to. I can't speak for Israel I've not followed their elections but I'd be surprised if people voting for the Likud party didn't have some idea who they'd bring into government with them and who they'd give ministries too.

Maybe we should be focusing more on a government for the Palestinian people as this can’t go on any longer, let alone Hamas trying to stay in power.

This is a link to a documentary made with Palestinians, assumably from before the current conflict -

https://x.com/rehoov/status/1952267684529221697

What I found particularly eye opening was Palestinian’s saying that flour was much cheaper and roads got repaired quicker under Israel.

It's interesting that not a single person can answer the OPs question. It looks like there really is no way that Israel will go down a less extremist path in the near future at least.

It's interesting that that's your interpretation.

Do you think many countries are worrying who will be the next leader in your own country, and do you wonder why they're so invested?
Unless of course you are in US, Russia or China....and then they might be understandably interested in how the political process will change the rest of the world.

Nobody forced Netanyahu to get into bed with the far right and the ultra orthodox. He did it because it was the only way that he could remain in power. Although he may maintain that "defending Israel" or "returning the hostages" are his priorities, in reality saving his own skin is actually at the top of his agenda. I'm surprised more people don't see that.

Maybe you could explain this argument to me -

Netanyahu is continuing to commit war crimes and constant breaches of international law, to enable himself to be painted as a genocidal psychopathic monster, the most hated man in Israel and globally, who’s life will be under threat for the rest of it and who also faces spending it in The Hague as a war criminal. Not only that he has deliberately ruined his country’s reputation in the world stage, put Israel’s survival at risk and put all Jewish people around the world at risk of persecution and harm.

He did that all that just to escape minor corruption charges which would at most have put him in prison for a few years and then he’d retire anyway. He’s 74.

Does that make much sense to you?

@ConscientiousObserver
I agree with a lot of what you say. He does present as a genocidal psychopath who has brought disgrace on both Israel and Judaism. This has resulted in the bigoted and stupid of the world seeing Israel's acts as representing Judaism, and as a consequence igniting antisemitism amongst the ignorant.
As for doing the above to maintain power, well, self obsessed narcissists like him will do anything to preserve their skins. And being the kind of person he is, he in no way acknowledges that any of the charges against him are valid. Bibi believes he is innocent and that the west should be grateful to Israel for doing its dirty work in tackling the problems of the region..

I disagree with your assertion that he is the most hated man in Israel. Just look at the polls, where he still has a great deal of support.