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Conflict in the Middle East

UK to recognise Palestine as a state in September

227 replies

SomeWomanSomewhere · 29/07/2025 16:50

"Unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation".

Source: Reuters

It is largely symbolic but it does mean the tide is turning!

Also: interesting to see that they frame it as largely contingent on Israeli behaviour

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Voxon · 30/07/2025 08:54

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 08:33

Jewish voters in Britain will rightly feel betrayed. Labour spent years rebuilding trust after Corbyn and while he's already almost utterly decimated that, this move trashes that.Antisemitic incidents will spike.

Do you have any proof that British Jews will feel 'betrayed' by moves to recognise Palestinians fundamental human right to self determination, it's quite a shocking claim to be honest especially from someone who says they are concerned about antisemitism.

I didn't say British Jews would feel betrayed by Palestinian self determination. I said they eould feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

British Jews overwhelmingly see Israel as part of their identity. That doesn’t mean they support every government policy, it means they care deeply about its survival, especially in the face of genocidal threats. Look at surveys from the Institute for Jewish Policy Research or CST if you need basic facts.

Recognition under these conditions, while Hamas is still holding hostages, still in power, and still calling for Israel’s destruction , sends a clear message: your pain doesn't matter, your security doesn't matter, your murdered relatives don't matter.

As for your talk of “fundamental rights”, the fundamental right to self-determination does not include gang rape, burning babies alive, and attempting to behead people with garden rakes. If you can’t distinguish between supporting a two-state solution and handing a state to terrorists mid-war, you might have a problem.

PurpleChrayn · 30/07/2025 08:58

This just proves that Palestine has been a bargaining chip against Israel since 1948.

This move us nothing to be celebrated, by either “side”.

Voxon · 30/07/2025 09:00

EasternStandard · 30/07/2025 08:13

@Voxoninteresting post.

I see Qatar and a few others have issued another statement on Hamas. Macron too ties the Palestinian state to peace.

Whereas Starmer is the only G7 to suggest a state where the conditions don’t have to be met by Hamas. But if they are by Israel they don’t get to be a state.

What bizarre tactics. I’m wondering if his cabinet made him do it for his job. He’s pretty craven and motivated by not being ousted.

Utterly bizarre.

"If you don't essentially surrender to let these terrorists live to attack you again and allow then to keep your citizens that they've held hostage for 660 days then I'm going to give a reward to these terrorists".

Uterrky bizarre.

I genuinely think (because of this and many other things) that this government is amateur on almost every front. They've got no idea what they're doing. Their advisors on the middle east are probably complete uninformed and unqualified.

They are like 6th formers. It's excruciatingly embarrassing.

Voxon · 30/07/2025 09:02

Twiglets1 · 30/07/2025 08:53

Arab world tells Hamas to lay down arms and end rule of Gaza

Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Egypt called for the Palestinian terror group to disband on Tuesday, the first time they have done so.

They joined 14 other countries, including Britain and France, in signing a statement that also condemned the Oct 7 terror attacks and told Hamas to give up power.

It is the first time Arab countries have condemned the group and demanded it play no part in the future governance of Palestine.

“In the context of ending the war in Gaza, Hamas must end its rule in Gaza and hand over its weapons to the Palestinian Authority, with international engagement and support, in line with the objective of a sovereign and independent Palestinian State,” reads the declaration, which was produced after a conference at the United Nations.

By signing the statement, the Arab nations also demanded the release of all remaining Israeli hostages.

The statement calls on Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders to “issue a clear public commitment to the two-state solution, including a sovereign and viable Palestinian State”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/07/29/arab-world-tells-hamas-lay-down-arms-end-rule-gaza/

They have more sense than the West! This kind of step is exactly what "freeing Palestine" really means.

Twiglets1 · 30/07/2025 09:08

Voxon · 30/07/2025 09:02

They have more sense than the West! This kind of step is exactly what "freeing Palestine" really means.

Yes I think it's a good statement. It has at least been signed by Britain and France & some other Western nations though it certainly goes further than what was said verbally by Macron and Starmer.

I posted a longer link to the article here

www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5382607-arab-world-tells-hamas-to-lay-down-arms-and-end-rule-of-gaza

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 09:15

Voxon · 30/07/2025 08:54

I didn't say British Jews would feel betrayed by Palestinian self determination. I said they eould feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

British Jews overwhelmingly see Israel as part of their identity. That doesn’t mean they support every government policy, it means they care deeply about its survival, especially in the face of genocidal threats. Look at surveys from the Institute for Jewish Policy Research or CST if you need basic facts.

Recognition under these conditions, while Hamas is still holding hostages, still in power, and still calling for Israel’s destruction , sends a clear message: your pain doesn't matter, your security doesn't matter, your murdered relatives don't matter.

As for your talk of “fundamental rights”, the fundamental right to self-determination does not include gang rape, burning babies alive, and attempting to behead people with garden rakes. If you can’t distinguish between supporting a two-state solution and handing a state to terrorists mid-war, you might have a problem.

So you think British Jews believe that fundamental human rights being recognised should be dependent on an entire population being of good character? That it doesn't matter that Hamas are 40000 tops out of a population of 5.3 million Palestinians in Palestine, none of them should have their fundamental right to self determination recognised until all of them behave? Right. I don't think what you are saying makes things better and I hope what you are saying is untrue.

SharonEllis · 30/07/2025 09:33

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 08:33

Jewish voters in Britain will rightly feel betrayed. Labour spent years rebuilding trust after Corbyn and while he's already almost utterly decimated that, this move trashes that.Antisemitic incidents will spike.

Do you have any proof that British Jews will feel 'betrayed' by moves to recognise Palestinians fundamental human right to self determination, it's quite a shocking claim to be honest especially from someone who says they are concerned about antisemitism.

Twisting again. She didn't say 'British Jews will feel 'betrayed' by moves to recognise Palestinians fundamental human right to self determination' she said British Jews would feel betrayed by this deal. And I think she's right.

Voxon · 30/07/2025 09:39

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 09:15

So you think British Jews believe that fundamental human rights being recognised should be dependent on an entire population being of good character? That it doesn't matter that Hamas are 40000 tops out of a population of 5.3 million Palestinians in Palestine, none of them should have their fundamental right to self determination recognised until all of them behave? Right. I don't think what you are saying makes things better and I hope what you are saying is untrue.

You’re twisting what was said every time you post and it’s tiresome. I'm sure everyone reading can see it.

No. I do not "think British Jews believe that fundamental human rights being recognised should be dependent on an entire population being of good character?"

What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

You're not talking about every Palestinian needing good character. Your talking about handing state apparatus to genocidal terrorists, in the middle of an active war, while they’re still holding civilians in tunnels.

They must be removed from power, before anything else.

PaxAeterna · 30/07/2025 09:41

@Voxon you, and I mean this as a compliment, would do a much better job working in a communications role in the Israeli government than what they currently have. You are more polite for starters.

I don’t think the UK are going far enough and I can only agree with the Israeli public figures who are calling for crippling sanctions on Israel until it agrees to a permanent ceasefire.

It’s a tale as old as time, people saying if we don’t suppress them, they’ll kill us. We saw this in apartheid South Africa, the unionists said it in Northern Ireland, Hutu extremists said it in Rwanda, Bosnian Serbs used it as an excuse for their genocide of Bodniak civilians. We had to do it or they’d kill us. We’ve heard it all before. There is nothing Jewish about it, all of mankind is capable of using this reasoning to justify extreme violence.

EasternStandard · 30/07/2025 09:46

Voxon · 30/07/2025 09:39

You’re twisting what was said every time you post and it’s tiresome. I'm sure everyone reading can see it.

No. I do not "think British Jews believe that fundamental human rights being recognised should be dependent on an entire population being of good character?"

What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

You're not talking about every Palestinian needing good character. Your talking about handing state apparatus to genocidal terrorists, in the middle of an active war, while they’re still holding civilians in tunnels.

They must be removed from power, before anything else.

Exactly. That last line. This feels like pressure on politicians who are saving their own bacon. I’m
concerned about how this could play out, as you say.

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 09:48

Voxon · 30/07/2025 09:39

You’re twisting what was said every time you post and it’s tiresome. I'm sure everyone reading can see it.

No. I do not "think British Jews believe that fundamental human rights being recognised should be dependent on an entire population being of good character?"

What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

You're not talking about every Palestinian needing good character. Your talking about handing state apparatus to genocidal terrorists, in the middle of an active war, while they’re still holding civilians in tunnels.

They must be removed from power, before anything else.

Like I said I hope what you are saying is untrue and that most people believe in the importance of having fundemenatal human rights recognised. Our fundamental human rights as recognised by International law are something that should come without caveats.

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 09:55

SharonEllis · 30/07/2025 09:33

Twisting again. She didn't say 'British Jews will feel 'betrayed' by moves to recognise Palestinians fundamental human right to self determination' she said British Jews would feel betrayed by this deal. And I think she's right.

What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

She said thay she believes they would feel betrayed if Palestinians as a whole are given their fundamental human rights whilst Hamas(40000 out of 5.3million people) remain in power. She has clearly said that she thinks that British Jews believe that the most basic of our human rights as recognised by International law should come with caveats. Self determination is a fundamental human right.

A fundamental human right is supposed to be a basic freedom or entitlement that every person has simply because they are human. These rights are supposed to be:

Universal, they apply to all people, everywhere.

Inalienable, they cannot be taken away, even if not always respected.

Inherent, they are not earned or granted; they belong to you by birth.

Claiming that British Jews are against this is pretty abhorrent in my view.

Twiglets1 · 30/07/2025 09:56

BeRedRobin · 30/07/2025 08:54

This is just starmer wanting to appear to look like the big I am on the world stage. Who cares about the UK and its receding power? Israel will just laugh at his face.
It's also to appease his MPs, some who are terrorist supporters.

It’s not just Starmer. There are about 20 countries who have signed this statement.

@BeRedRobin apologies I thought you were referring to a different statement Starmer has signed, not his announcement.

Twiglets1 · 30/07/2025 09:58

Everyone reading can see the twisting they are doing of your words @Voxon don’t worry about that. It’s an old, tired trick.

Voxon · 30/07/2025 10:01

PaxAeterna · 30/07/2025 09:41

@Voxon you, and I mean this as a compliment, would do a much better job working in a communications role in the Israeli government than what they currently have. You are more polite for starters.

I don’t think the UK are going far enough and I can only agree with the Israeli public figures who are calling for crippling sanctions on Israel until it agrees to a permanent ceasefire.

It’s a tale as old as time, people saying if we don’t suppress them, they’ll kill us. We saw this in apartheid South Africa, the unionists said it in Northern Ireland, Hutu extremists said it in Rwanda, Bosnian Serbs used it as an excuse for their genocide of Bodniak civilians. We had to do it or they’d kill us. We’ve heard it all before. There is nothing Jewish about it, all of mankind is capable of using this reasoning to justify extreme violence.

Edited

Being polite is challenging when I reply to posts like this one, but I'll do my best.

It’s a tale as old as time, people saying if we don’t suppress them, they’ll kill us.

No, dear, it's Hamas saying they'll kill Israelis. They wrote it in their founding charter, they say it openly on TV, and they repeat it constantly without shame. They even shared many hours of video tape with the world to show what they mean.

Israel is not “suppressing” a peaceful, disenfranchised group, it is fighting an armed jihadist organisation that butchered 1,200 civilians in a single day, raped women, burned children alive, and still holds over 100 hostages.

The ANC didn’t tunnel into kindergartens, the SDLP didn’t livestream beheadings, and the Bosniaks weren’t firing rockets into civilian neighbourhoods from behind their own children.

Hamas openly declares that it wants to repeat October 7 “again and again”. The argument “we had to do it or they’d kill us” isn’t always wrong, sometimes, it’s true. And given that it's been shown to you to be true, I think you've lost all plausible deniability to pretend you believe otherwise.

Voxon · 30/07/2025 10:02

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 09:48

Like I said I hope what you are saying is untrue and that most people believe in the importance of having fundemenatal human rights recognised. Our fundamental human rights as recognised by International law are something that should come without caveats.

What fundamental human rights are you talking about?

SharonEllis · 30/07/2025 10:13

Voxon · 30/07/2025 09:39

You’re twisting what was said every time you post and it’s tiresome. I'm sure everyone reading can see it.

No. I do not "think British Jews believe that fundamental human rights being recognised should be dependent on an entire population being of good character?"

What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

You're not talking about every Palestinian needing good character. Your talking about handing state apparatus to genocidal terrorists, in the middle of an active war, while they’re still holding civilians in tunnels.

They must be removed from power, before anything else.

Yes everyone can see the twisting. Its insidious and very very tedious. Your patience is incredible.

Voxon · 30/07/2025 10:21

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 09:55

What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October.

She said thay she believes they would feel betrayed if Palestinians as a whole are given their fundamental human rights whilst Hamas(40000 out of 5.3million people) remain in power. She has clearly said that she thinks that British Jews believe that the most basic of our human rights as recognised by International law should come with caveats. Self determination is a fundamental human right.

A fundamental human right is supposed to be a basic freedom or entitlement that every person has simply because they are human. These rights are supposed to be:

Universal, they apply to all people, everywhere.

Inalienable, they cannot be taken away, even if not always respected.

Inherent, they are not earned or granted; they belong to you by birth.

Claiming that British Jews are against this is pretty abhorrent in my view.

Edited

She said thay she believes they would feel betrayed if Palestinians as a whole are given their fundamental human rights whilst Hamas(40000 out of 5.3million people) remain in power.

No I did not say anything remotely like that. You've been told three times now. What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October. If you keep lying about what I said I will keep copying and pasting until the thread expires, so I can go at this for a year if that's what you want.

She has clearly said that she thinks that British Jews believe that the most basic of our human rights as recognised by International law should come with caveats. Self determination is a fundamental human right.

Utter bullshit. Nothing like what I said. And you're also more generally talking garbage. "Self-Determination" is the right of a people to decide their political status and pursue economic, social, and cultural development. Yes, self-determination is a recognised human right, but no, not every group gets a state, and most don’t.

Unlike, say, the Scots or Basques, Palestinian factions are not pursuing peaceful self-determination, they are still engaged in open warfare, hostage-taking, and the intentional murder of civilians.

A fundamental human right is supposed to be a basic freedom or entitlement that every person has simply because they are human. These rights are supposed to be:

Universal, they apply to all people, everywhere.

Inalienable, they cannot be taken away, even if not always respected.

Inherent, they are not earned or granted; they belong to you by birth.

And here lies the most sickening part of your post, which is that you’re arguing to hand statehood and international legitimacy to a regime that openly denies not only the Jewish right to self-determination, but the Jewish right to exist.

Hamas’s founding charter calls for the eradication of Israel, its leaders publicly vow to repeat October 7 “again and again,” and they celebrate the murder of civilians. Supporting recognition of a Palestinian state while that group holds power is not a stand for human rights, it’s an endorsement of one people’s rights at the direct expense of another’s. That’s not justice. That’s complicity.

What makes this worse is that there is nothing in Judaism or the global Jewish community that denies Arabs the right to self-determination. Aside from not denying legitimacy to the existing 22 Arab states, Israeli leaders have repeatedly supported a two-state solution, and Jewish communities around the world have called for peaceful coexistence.

Meanwhile, the Arab Charter on Human Rights (2004) makes a mockery of universality by affirming self-determination for all peoples but then explicitly excluding Jews!!!!!

Article 2(c): “All peoples have the right of self-determination. They shall freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

But then:

Article 2(d): “All forms of racism, Zionism and foreign occupation and domination are a violation of human dignity and a fundamental obstacle to the enjoyment of the fundamental rights of peoples...”

By equating Zionism, the Jewish right to self-determination, with racism, the Arab Charter specifically denies Jews the very right it claims to uphold for everyone else.

That isn’t universalism. That’s ethnic discrimination baked into a supposed “human rights” framework. If you're serious about human rights, you should be condemning that not defending regimes that uphold it or trying to turn the tables.

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 10:26

Voxon · 30/07/2025 10:21

She said thay she believes they would feel betrayed if Palestinians as a whole are given their fundamental human rights whilst Hamas(40000 out of 5.3million people) remain in power.

No I did not say anything remotely like that. You've been told three times now. What was very clearly said to you is that they would feel betrayed by Britain recognising a Palestinian ‘state’ while Hamas still holds hostages, remains in power and openly vows more massacres like 7 October. If you keep lying about what I said I will keep copying and pasting until the thread expires, so I can go at this for a year if that's what you want.

She has clearly said that she thinks that British Jews believe that the most basic of our human rights as recognised by International law should come with caveats. Self determination is a fundamental human right.

Utter bullshit. Nothing like what I said. And you're also more generally talking garbage. "Self-Determination" is the right of a people to decide their political status and pursue economic, social, and cultural development. Yes, self-determination is a recognised human right, but no, not every group gets a state, and most don’t.

Unlike, say, the Scots or Basques, Palestinian factions are not pursuing peaceful self-determination, they are still engaged in open warfare, hostage-taking, and the intentional murder of civilians.

A fundamental human right is supposed to be a basic freedom or entitlement that every person has simply because they are human. These rights are supposed to be:

Universal, they apply to all people, everywhere.

Inalienable, they cannot be taken away, even if not always respected.

Inherent, they are not earned or granted; they belong to you by birth.

And here lies the most sickening part of your post, which is that you’re arguing to hand statehood and international legitimacy to a regime that openly denies not only the Jewish right to self-determination, but the Jewish right to exist.

Hamas’s founding charter calls for the eradication of Israel, its leaders publicly vow to repeat October 7 “again and again,” and they celebrate the murder of civilians. Supporting recognition of a Palestinian state while that group holds power is not a stand for human rights, it’s an endorsement of one people’s rights at the direct expense of another’s. That’s not justice. That’s complicity.

What makes this worse is that there is nothing in Judaism or the global Jewish community that denies Arabs the right to self-determination. Aside from not denying legitimacy to the existing 22 Arab states, Israeli leaders have repeatedly supported a two-state solution, and Jewish communities around the world have called for peaceful coexistence.

Meanwhile, the Arab Charter on Human Rights (2004) makes a mockery of universality by affirming self-determination for all peoples but then explicitly excluding Jews!!!!!

Article 2(c): “All peoples have the right of self-determination. They shall freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

But then:

Article 2(d): “All forms of racism, Zionism and foreign occupation and domination are a violation of human dignity and a fundamental obstacle to the enjoyment of the fundamental rights of peoples...”

By equating Zionism, the Jewish right to self-determination, with racism, the Arab Charter specifically denies Jews the very right it claims to uphold for everyone else.

That isn’t universalism. That’s ethnic discrimination baked into a supposed “human rights” framework. If you're serious about human rights, you should be condemning that not defending regimes that uphold it or trying to turn the tables.

You can say the same thing over and over if you like, I don't care. Recognising Palestinians right to self-determination, which is what recognising Palestine does, shouldn't come with caveats.

EasternStandard · 30/07/2025 10:33

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 10:26

You can say the same thing over and over if you like, I don't care. Recognising Palestinians right to self-determination, which is what recognising Palestine does, shouldn't come with caveats.

Edited

Do you mean no caveats including one on Hamas? If they are in power should it still happen?

Voxon · 30/07/2025 10:33

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 10:26

You can say the same thing over and over if you like, I don't care. Recognising Palestinians right to self-determination, which is what recognising Palestine does, shouldn't come with caveats.

Edited

Well done for writing a post without any lies in it. Even if it doesn't contain any acknowledgement of the fact you're accusing one side of that of which the other is guilty. Classic Palestinianism!

We can agree to disagree on your opinion. I believe a very big, fat, iron-clad caveat to self-determination for any group is that they are pursuing it through peaceful means and a willingness to coexist with others.

mouthpipette · 30/07/2025 10:57

"Jewish voters in Britain will rightly feel betrayed." @ Voxon

You forgot to preface that statement with the word "some".
Many Jews do not ( thankfully) think the way you do Voxon.

Voxon · 30/07/2025 11:05

mouthpipette · 30/07/2025 10:57

"Jewish voters in Britain will rightly feel betrayed." @ Voxon

You forgot to preface that statement with the word "some".
Many Jews do not ( thankfully) think the way you do Voxon.

Youre thankful because you think many Jews think power and rewards should be given to Hamas? What a weird thing to be thankful for.

LipstickLessons · 30/07/2025 11:16

Voxon · 30/07/2025 10:33

Well done for writing a post without any lies in it. Even if it doesn't contain any acknowledgement of the fact you're accusing one side of that of which the other is guilty. Classic Palestinianism!

We can agree to disagree on your opinion. I believe a very big, fat, iron-clad caveat to self-determination for any group is that they are pursuing it through peaceful means and a willingness to coexist with others.

Yes Voxon. That's what I have been saying all along and have been accused of twisting your very many words. You have caveats on fundamental human rights and accused British Jews of sharing your values.

PaxAeterna · 30/07/2025 11:17

Voxon · 30/07/2025 10:01

Being polite is challenging when I reply to posts like this one, but I'll do my best.

It’s a tale as old as time, people saying if we don’t suppress them, they’ll kill us.

No, dear, it's Hamas saying they'll kill Israelis. They wrote it in their founding charter, they say it openly on TV, and they repeat it constantly without shame. They even shared many hours of video tape with the world to show what they mean.

Israel is not “suppressing” a peaceful, disenfranchised group, it is fighting an armed jihadist organisation that butchered 1,200 civilians in a single day, raped women, burned children alive, and still holds over 100 hostages.

The ANC didn’t tunnel into kindergartens, the SDLP didn’t livestream beheadings, and the Bosniaks weren’t firing rockets into civilian neighbourhoods from behind their own children.

Hamas openly declares that it wants to repeat October 7 “again and again”. The argument “we had to do it or they’d kill us” isn’t always wrong, sometimes, it’s true. And given that it's been shown to you to be true, I think you've lost all plausible deniability to pretend you believe otherwise.

I am clearly saying that the we had to kill them before they killed us argument has been used to justify extreme violence against civilians.

ANC, the IRA and Bosniak units in the army did commit acts of violence/terror/war crimes. They all had civilian casualties.

But their actions were used as an excuse for brutality against whole populations. Which again is exactly what you are trying to justify with your words. You just think that, this time, it’s not wrong.