Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

Investigation into alteration of October 7th timeline documentation

23 replies

Scirocco · 15/11/2024 17:18

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgk18pdnxmmo

One of Netanyahu's close aides is alleged to have altered details of telephone calls to present Netanyahu in a more favourable light, making it appear that he acted more urgently.

Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu holds papers and sits to the left of Tzachi Braverman, who has dark short hair and wears glasses. The Israeli flag is visible in the background. Both men are dressed in navy suits with red ties.

Netanyahu aide investigated by police over 7 October timeline

Tzachi Braverman is accused of altering phone records to make the prime minister look more decisive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgk18pdnxmmo

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 15/11/2024 21:34

Netanyahu is manipulative and a liar.

ScrollingLeaves · 15/11/2024 21:49

From the BBC article about the telephone call:

The 7 October attack was the biggest military and intelligence failure in Israel’s history.

Several senior military officials have already resigned over it.

Netanyahu has consistently denied any personal failure.

His critics though, believe it is the prime minister who was ultimately responsible for the failure to prevent the deadliest attack on the country since the foundation of the State of Israel in 1948.

In my opinion there was not really an intelligence failure as there was plenty of intelligence. Netanyahu knew it (though he has tried to deny it) but for whatever reason ignored it, and now keeps pushing a full investigation away.

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 08:43

I remember how some posters would try to shut down the debate when I and others questioned the dismissal of the warnings of an impeding attack by Hamas and the huge delay in the response to it by the IDF.
Add to this Netanyahu's refusal to conduct an inquiry and you might come to a certain conclusion.

BoydTheApe · 16/11/2024 10:34

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 08:43

I remember how some posters would try to shut down the debate when I and others questioned the dismissal of the warnings of an impeding attack by Hamas and the huge delay in the response to it by the IDF.
Add to this Netanyahu's refusal to conduct an inquiry and you might come to a certain conclusion.

What conclusion?

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 10:43

BoydTheApe · 16/11/2024 10:34

What conclusion?

Work it out.

BoydTheApe · 16/11/2024 10:56

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 10:43

Work it out.

I can't, that's why I asked? Confused

Limesodaagain · 16/11/2024 11:09

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 08:43

I remember how some posters would try to shut down the debate when I and others questioned the dismissal of the warnings of an impeding attack by Hamas and the huge delay in the response to it by the IDF.
Add to this Netanyahu's refusal to conduct an inquiry and you might come to a certain conclusion.

The conclusion I come to is that the response to the warnings given by guards on the border was criminally negligent and Netanyahu is trying to deceitfully cover his tracks to suggest he responded with urgency as soon as possible. Is that the conclusion you come to?

BelleHathor · 16/11/2024 11:14

An Israeli news site reported this last month (translated from Hebrew):
https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/036814c74a0e1910/Article-7a5a4eee5caa291026.htm

"More than a year after the October inauguration, the political leadership has repeatedly claimed that it did not receive any warning before the attack - but a document revealed this evening (Sunday) indicates otherwise. According to the document, on the night of the attack, at 02:58 a.m., the Shin Bet issued a significant warning to a number of security and political bodies, including the NSC directly subordinate to the prime Minister.
...
The alert, which was distributed through a computerized system, included information about unusual activity in the SIM network of several Hamas brigades. The Shin Bet said the activity was unusual and could indicate the possibility of some kind of offensive activity by Hamas.
......
Despite the severity of the warning, it appears that no significant action has been taken in its wake. The NSC, for example, did not take any steps following the receipt of the information. The Israeli police did not change their activities either, as can be seen from the fact that the Nuba party in southern Israel took place as planned."

N12 - חשיפה: גם המשטרה והמל"ל קיבלו אזהרה בליל המתקפה

התרעה על "פעילות חריגה" של חמאס הועברה למשטרה ולמטה לביטחון לאומי שעות לפני המתקפה ב-7 באוקטובר • ההודעה, שהופצה על ידי השב"כ בשעה 02:58, ציינה אינדיקציות לפעילות ברשת הסלולר של מספר חטיבות חמאס

https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/036814c74a0e1910/Article-7a5a4eee5caa291026.htm

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 11:19

Limesodaagain · 16/11/2024 11:09

The conclusion I come to is that the response to the warnings given by guards on the border was criminally negligent and Netanyahu is trying to deceitfully cover his tracks to suggest he responded with urgency as soon as possible. Is that the conclusion you come to?

Partly yes but how do you explain the 6 hours delay in responding to the attack?

Limesodaagain · 16/11/2024 12:02

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 11:19

Partly yes but how do you explain the 6 hours delay in responding to the attack?

There will have to be an investigation. Speculating is probably unhelpful. But I don’t think Netanyahu will come out well of any investigation

ScrollingLeaves · 16/11/2024 19:06

Re:Netanyahu having been warned about an imminent attack alleging he hadn’t:

Haaretz 30 August
Report: Shin Bet Chief Warned Netanyahu of Imminent War Before Oct. 7; PM: Gaza Not Mentioned

Ronen Bar, the leader of the Shin Bet security service, warned PM Netanyahu in July 2023 that war was imminent, according to a report by Yedioth Ahronoth daily.

Opposition leader Yair Lapid recounted the meeting with the Shin Bet chief to the civilian commission of inquiry into Oct. 7
The head of Israel's Shin Bet security service warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in July 2023 that war was imminent, according to a report published on Friday in Yediot Ahronoth.

The report states that Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar held a meeting with Netanyahu on the eve of the vote to forbid judges from invoking the reasonableness clause in cases – one of the key elements in the Netanyahu government's judicial overhaul plan.

Bar told Netanyahu that he couldn't say the exact day and time the war would begin. Bar received Netanyahu's permission to share this intelligence with Opposition Leader Yair Lapid, and subsequently gave him a similar message.

Shin Bet officials didn't deny the report but said they wouldn't comment on discussions with political leaders. The Prime Minister's Office denied there was any warning about war in the Gaza Strip.

"Prime Minister Netanyahu didn't get any warning about war in Gaza – not on the date in question and not a moment before 6:29 A.M. on the PMO stated.
"On the contrary, all security sources explicitly stated – as appears in the minutes of the meeting up until the war's eve – that Hamas was deterred and sought to reach an arrangement. Moreover, just days before October 7, the Shin Bet assessment was that it could expect Gaza to remain stable over time," Netanyahu's office said.

On Thursday, Lapid discussed Bar's warning with the civilian commission of inquiry into the October 7 massacre. "I'd like to refute the notion that political leaders weren't told that Hamas was not deterred. I was told. The material I saw was shown to the cabinet as well," Lapid said.

The opposition leader recounted meeting Bar the night before the reasonableness standard was canceled, where he received "unprecedented warnings about the security risks and internal divisions caused by the judicial overhaul."

Lapid said he asked the Shin Bet chief if these warnings were also conveyed to Netanyahu and cabinet ministers, to which the answer was "of course," adding that President Isaac Herzog was also updated on the growing threats.

Lapid also told the commission that the military secretary to the prime minister informed him about a year ago that terror organizations had detected a weakness in Israel because of the judicial overhaulattempts. Lapid asserted that the secretary at the time, Maj. Gen. Avi Gil, told Netanyahu as much at a security update that Lapid attended on August 21, 2023. He added that Netanyahu looked "bored and indifferent" to him.

According to Lapid, Gen. Gil claimed that terrorist organizations perceived "weakness, internal division, tension, and a loss of combat fitness in the army, alongside an ongoing crisis with the Americans." Because of this situation, he participated in several hearings in the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. "I was presented with intelligence at the highest level of classification. Its implications were clear: Israel is at an exceptionally high level of risk," he said.

Lapid told the commission that an increase in threats against Israel was presented to the committee's participants during a meeting in September. "What was stated there was – in my view – unequivocal. Israeli deterrence has dramatically eroded, and our enemies believe they have a rare opportunity to harm us," he said.

He added that he made a media statement following the meeting, in which he stressed the growing danger. "All the heads of the defense establishment, the IDF, Shin Bet security service, police and intelligence agencies are warning the government and the [security] cabinet of a violent escalation," he said at the time.
………….

BoydTheApe · 17/11/2024 10:52

Auvergne63 · 16/11/2024 11:19

Partly yes but how do you explain the 6 hours delay in responding to the attack?

How do you explain it? I don't understand why you're being so cryptic.

Auvergne63 · 17/11/2024 15:43

BoydTheApe · 17/11/2024 10:52

How do you explain it? I don't understand why you're being so cryptic.

It is a legitimate question, not a cryptic one. Why did it take the IFD so long to respond? If I was a member the families of these people slaughtered and subjected to the most vile acts by Hamas, I would want to know, wouldn't you?

ScrollingLeaves · 17/11/2024 19:13

This is an excerpt from +972 Magazine Oct 7 2024:

Not all of the festival survivors turned to God; in fact, 42 of them turned to an attorney called Gilad Ginzburg. He is helping them sue the Israeli army, the police, the Defence Ministry, and the Shin Bet for gross negligence, in light of the warnings they received — and failed to act on — about unusual activity near the Gaza fence on the night of Oct. 6.

https://www.972mag.com/nova-massacre-october-7-year/

Despite intel warnings about a Hamas attack, the army didn’t evacuate the Nova festival

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-05/ty-article/.premium/despite-intel-warnings-about-a-hamas-attack-the-army-didnt-evacuate-the-nova-festival/0000018c-3993-dc03-a9ec-3dfb2cda0000

ScrollingLeaves · 17/11/2024 19:51

Excerpt from a Tomes of Israel report linked by +972 magazine:

The claim cited reports following the massacre, which said senior officers in the Gaza Division expressed concerns over the party, and that the operations commander opposed it being held. It also noted that Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar held consultations the night before, and even sent a special operations team to the border the night before the onslaught.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/42-survivors-of-the-nova-rave-massacre-sue-defense-establishment-for-negligence/

And an excerpt from another link in +972 magazine: Haaretz December 2023
‘This Massacre Should Have Been Prevented’
Despite Israeli Intelligence Warnings About a Hamas Attack, the Army Didn’t Evacuate the Nova Festival

Top defense officials held urgent consultations the night before October 7 about a possible Hamas attack. But no one in the IDF notified the the Nova festival organizers or the party-goers, hundreds of whom were mown down – and for nine hours, no one came to save them.

From archive ph (copied without links) it continues:

Hours before Hamas’ October 7 terror attack, Israel’s security forces had enough warning signs to prepare – at least partially – for the possibility that terrorists would seek to infiltrate from Gaza into Israel.

Despite the fact that the Gaza Division's Northern Brigade approved the Nova music festival’s staging in the Kibbutz Re'im parking lot, was responsible for its security, and its commander was aware of the warnings, no one in the IDF notified the thousands of party-goers or the party's organizers of their concerns, or demanded that the event be shut down.

Moreover, it turned out that army units that were on alert in the area at the start of the Hamas attack had no knowledge of the party.

In the earliest hours of the massacre, party organizers called the officer with whom they had been in contact and were told that the forces were in disarray and that they would have to manage on their own. The result was that about 360 festival attendees were murdered by terrorists, and at least another 40 were taken as hostages into the Gaza Strip.

Moreover, it turned out that army units that were on alert in the area at the start of the Hamas attack had no knowledge of the party.

The festival production team says that if they had received a warning from the army even an hour before the attack, they could have evacuated all the party-goers in time.

The intelligence was based on several sources that pointed to worrisome preparations on the other side of the border. The later warning had been preceded by other intelligence that aroused concerns among officials.

The findings were worrying enough that top defense officials held two urgent consultations on Friday night in an effort to determine whether the intelligence they had in hand pointed to plans by Hamas to infiltrate Israeli territory.

Even though the defense establishment did not anticipate the size of the incursion by Hamas terrorists, it received warnings the night before that the organization would try to stage an attack inside Israel.

The first phone meeting took place close to midnight and included senior figures from the Shin Bet security service’s southern district and Military Intelligence; Gen. Oded Basyuk, head of the IDF’s operations branch, Maj. Gen. Yaron Finkleman, the head of the Southern Command and other senior officers. Chief of Staff Herzl Halevi was made aware of the warnings and the urgent consultations

A second consultation, which included now Ronen Bar, the Shin Bet chief, took place at about 3 A.M. Saturday. The commander of the Gaza Division’s Northern Brigade, Col. Haim Cohen, who signed the papers on October 5 authorizing the Nova party, was aware of the warnings, and knew about the urgent meetings that were taking place that night.

Following the second meeting, the IDF decided to accept the Shin Bet’s opinion that Hamas was conducting a training exercise and was not preparing for an attack. Military Intelligence accepted that view but due to concerns by the Southern Command forces were to be made ready for the possibility that Hamas might act.

The commander of the Palmachim Base, Brig. Gen. Omri Dor, received an order to step up drone monitoring of Gaza. Calling up a drone crew on a weekend is an exceptional act, reserved for concrete warnings and concern of an imminent security incident.

During the night, the Shin Bet decided that the determination that this was only a drill was too strident, and sent a crew from the “Team Tequila,” the service’s operational unit, tasked with preventing abductions in the event of incursions into Israel, to the Nahal Oz area.

Concurrently, the IDF decided to put two teams from the commando brigade on alert in case of incursion, to serve as temporary intervention teams until special forces arrived if needed.

At 3 A.M., an IDF spotter at the Kisufim Outpost reported a suspicious figure across the border approaching almost to the fence and pointing at Israel. A force of Golani troops arrived on the scene, fired a few tear gas grenades, and left.

According to the spotter’s testimony, her commanders complained that she “warns them of everything”, and demanded that she be more selective in mobilising troops.

At 4 A.M., following concerns by some in the security establishment, a few teams of the special anti-terror unit at the Latrun base, were notified to be on alert until dawn.

According to information reported in Haaretz for the first time, at around 5 A.M., lookouts mobilized a Golani force that was near the Nahal Oz outpost due to someone touching the border fence.

The force mounted a jeep and left for the location, but en route received orders from their commanders not to approach the fence area “due to fear of anti-tank or rocket fire from Gaza.”

Throughout that night, no one from the IDF or Shin Bet came to the area of the party to update the party's security team on the warnings, and no one demanded to stop it. The party received military approval as it was held in an area west of Route 232, under the responsibility of the Gaza Division and the northern brigade.

Some two weeks prior to the festival, the organizers were invited to a meeting at the Gaza Division, at which they were presented with the commanders’ conditions for holding the event. The permit, signed by Col. Cohen, says among other things that “the northern brigade is responsible for regional security during the event in the fence space across from the Gaza Strip.”

But at 6:30 A.M., the festival attendants found out that the required forces were not stationed by the fence. One of the commanders on alert in the area even claimed to Haaretz that no one informed the forces that were placed on alert that the festival was even taking place.

Shortly after the Hamas terrorists broke through the border fence, they reached the area where the festival was held and massacred hundreds of civilians<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/qa4v0/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-07/ty-article/.premium/survivors-of-massacre-at-israeli-outdoor-rave-describe-battlefield/0000018b-0a85-dae9-adcb-abbfa4990000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">. Some police and security guards who were there tried to fight, but they couldn’t hold for long against the hundreds of heavily armed terrorists who entered the area.

At 7 A.M., the party organizers tried for the first time to contact a military agency: One of them called Lt. Col. Elad Zandani, head of the Home Front Command at the Gaza Division and the man tasked with the process of approving the festival – and told him that terrorists were shooting the partygoers.

Zandani replied that he was unable to help, the troops were collapsing, and suggested that they fend for themselves. The first IDF forces only arrived at the party scene at 3 P.M.

“The military understands that the Re’im festival will be at the center of the inquiry commissions that will be established at the end of the war,” an IDF source said this week, adding: “This massacre should have been prevented.”

The IDF Spokesperson’s unit said in response: “The IDF is operating and fighting these days against the murderous terror group Hamas in the Gaza Strip. A detailed and in-depth investigation of the matter, to ascertain the details, will be carried out when the operational situation allows.”

ScrollingLeaves · 17/11/2024 20:32

From Haaretz Nov 20 2023
The Women Soldiers Who Warned of a Pending Hamas Attack – and Were Ignored
Over the past year, the Israel Defense Forces’ spotters situated on the Gaza border, all women, warned that something unusual was happening. Those who survived the October 7 massacre are convinced that if it had been men sounding the alarm, things would look different today.

Excerpt ( the whole article is in archive ph using the headline).

Somehow, Shir and her colleagues are not surprised by the attitude they have encountered; just perhaps a little unnerved by its intensity. During their years of military service, they say they’ve grown accustomed to the fact that they “don’t count.” Nor was any notice given to the repeated warnings they raised before Hamas’ infiltration on Black Saturday. Warnings that, it seems to them, were going in one IDF earpiece and out the other.

These included reports about Hamas’ preparations near the border fence, its drone activity in recent months, its efforts to knock out cameras, the extensive use of vans and motorcycles, and even rehearsals for the shelling of tanks.

The spotters believe Hamas was actually being rather negligent: it didn’t try to hide anything and its actions were out in the open. But throughout this period, they say senior officers in the IDF’s Gaza Division and Southern Command refused to listen to their warnings. They believe this stemmed partly from arrogance but also from male chauvinism.

The spotters are exclusively “young women and young women commanders,” explains one of them. “There’s no doubt that if men had been sitting at those screens, things would look different.”

‘Tell everyone we love them’

In some ways, the hours leading up to the morning of October 7 were quite ordinary. Noga, a spotter stationed at the IDF’s intelligence unit at Kissufim, close to the Gaza border, spotted an unfamiliar, suspicious-looking man standing in front of one of the barrier gates erected along the Gaza Strip border.

Her report reached Lt. Col. Meir Ohayon, commander of the 51st Battalion in the Golani Brigade, who at 3 A.M. made his way to the location and, after sighting the man, fired tear gas at him. The suspect turned back and went to a Hamas observation post about 300 meters (nearly 1,000 feet) from the fence, which is the distance at which Palestinians are allowed to stay. The spotter observed several other people at the same position, and it seemed to her that a briefing was being held there.

All of the above seemed unusual and disturbing to her, so she shared her feelings with the other spotters as well as the on-duty commander. However, at the end of a discussion that lasted about a minute in the operations room and in consultation with the division, it was decided to return to normal.

“I’m sorry I had to wake you at this hour,” the spotter apologized to Ohayon, “but I still think there’s something strange here.”

Ohayon was unperturbed and replied that it’s always best to be vigilant in order to avoid surprises. A few hours later, it became clear that this “vigilance” did not prevent the surprise.

This was merely the final piece in the puzzle, though. In retrospect, after she fully understood the scope of the disaster, and after she had lost dozens of friends who were either killed or kidnapped by Hamas, the sheer scale of the disconnect became clear to the spotter.

While she had been trying to understand who the suspicious figure was and what he was up to, the IDF and Shin Bet security service had already held discussions following a warning about a terrorist infiltration. It was serious enough for the senior officials to decide (on the Friday evening) to increase the presence of special forces in the south, sending a specialist team trained to deal with terror squads.

Another team from the Shin Bet operational unit and a force from the commando unit were also placed on alert. An elite IDF team from Sayeret Matkal was also dispatched to the area. However, no one in the Southern Command or its Gaza Division bothered to inform the dozens of young women serving as spotters at the Kissufim and Nahal Oz army bases of that. This did not even change at 4 A.M., when it was decided to put the Gaza border communities themselves on alert for fear of possible infiltration.

“If we had known about this warning, this whole disaster would have looked different,” Yaara tells Haaretz. “Nobody told us there was such a high level of alert.”

^According to Yaara, three hours, or even two hours, would have given the young spotters time to prepare. “But nobody thought to tell us. The IDF left us like sitting ducks on a range. The fighters at least had weapons and died as heroes. The spotters who had been abandoned by the army were simply slaughtered, without any opportunity to defend themselves.” *

At around 6:30 A.M., Noga still found time to report about the “infiltration” protocol for communities and military bases, all while hearing the gunfire and shouting of the terrorists outside the command center where she was stationed.

In the spotters’ WhatsApp group, friends from Nahal Oz were already reporting that terrorists were everywhere, that people had been killed and kidnapped, and that there was nowhere to run. At 7:17 A.M., the last message was received in the group, signed by spotters from Nahal Oz: “Tell everyone that we love them and thanks for everything.”

Disdainful attitude

The spotters’ harsh words for their superiors is not a new development. In fact, Haaretz published an investigative report last year focusing on the disdainful attitude toward them from their commanders. At the time, your correspondent spoke with spotters from bases across Israel, including those in the Gaza Division.

One of the issues they raised was that their voice was simply not being heard and that their professional opinion was not being given due weight. It seems that any commission of inquiry studying the events of October 7 will have to start with the testimonies of those surviving spotters.

They can pinpoint seemingly pivotal incidents going back months. For instance, Talia, who has served as a spotter in the Gaza Division for about 18 months and is therefore considered something of a veteran, recounts: “A month before the war, I was sitting in the command center in Kissufim and at around 7 A.M. dozens of cars and vans arrived in the area I’m responsible for, near one of Hamas’ observation towers. After a few minutes, a luxury car stopped next to them – the type of car very few people in Gaza have, so definitely Hamas.”

“I didn’t recognize all of them, but it was clear to me that these men were from Nukhba [Hamas’ special forces], because some of them had ski masks over their faces so as not to be identified. They left there for a briefing that lasted a long time, 30 to 40 minutes, with binoculars, pointing to the Israeli side.”

Talia says she wanted to try to identify the men and see what was in their vehicles – so she pointed the cameras to one of the senior people there and zoomed in.

“He gestured to me, wagging his finger – ‘nu, nu, nu,’” she recounts, admitting her shock because the camera was located on a high pole at a great distance from where the group was standing, but he knew exactly where it was.

At that stage, she called in her commander. I told her they can see me, that he’s talking to me through the camera,” she recalls. “She also saw this and didn’t know how to react to it.”

After the Gazans left, Talia says she received a report from a more northerly lookout post that the same group had returned and was stopping in different spots along the length of the Gaza Strip.

For Talia and the other spotters on duty that day, this looked like a briefing prior to an operation against Israel – and they acted accordingly.

“We flagged the event, we reported that it was unusual and that they could see us,” she recalls. “We reported that it was a briefing by senior [Hamas] officials who we could not recognize. But until today, it’s not clear what [the IDF] did with that information.”

She says her commanders also tried to pass this information up the chain of command. However, as relatively low-ranking officers, these women “are just as helpless as we are before the senior commanders – and certainly before the division and regional command,” Talia says. “Nobody really pays any attention to us. As far as they’re concerned, it’s ‘sit at your screens’ and that’s it. They’d say: ‘You’re our eyes, not the head that needs to make decisions about the information.”

When the Hamas attack began on October 7, and after messages had come in from the Nahal Oz base, Talia sent a message to that same commander, asking if she remembered the earlier event. “She replied that she had no doubt it was the briefing for the attack,” she relates. “At the same time, we’re seeing videos of our friends being taken off to Gaza, helpless.”

Every stone, every vehicle

Two to three months. That’s how long it takes for a new spotter to know her sector “better than anyone else in the IDF,” Talia says. “In my sector, I know every stone, every vehicle, shepherd, Hamas training camp, laborers, birdwatchers, trails and outposts.” In her words, a veteran spotter does not need “8200 in order to tell immediately whether her sector is operating unusually,” a reference to the fabled intelligence unit.

It is hard work, often Sisyphean. A spotter’s shift lasts for nine hours, during which she sits in front of a screen attempting to monitor anything that seems at all unusual, even a slight deviation from the norm. Any such event must immediately be logged in an operational report, which is sent to the base commanders, and from there to the intelligence desks of the relevant divisions and command centers.

What happens in practice with the information they have just relayed? The spotters are finding it hard to answer that question.

This was also the case when Hamas drones started flying regularly in their sector.

“In the past couple of months, they began to put up drones every day, sometimes twice a day, that came really close to the border,” says another spotter, Ilana. “Up to 300 meters from the fence – sometimes less than that. A month and a half before the war, we saw that in one of Hamas’ training camps, they had built an exact replica of an armed observation post, just like the ones we have. They started to train there with drones, to hit the observation post.”

Ilana recounts how they passed this information on according to protocol, but even went beyond that: “We yelled at our commanders that they have to take us more seriously, that something bad is happening here. We understood that the behavior in the field was very strange, that they were basically training for an attack against us. Until now, nobody has come and told us what was done with this information.”

And then on Black Saturday, when they saw the drones blowing up their observation posts one after the other, the spotters knew where this was headed. “We knew from the moment the attack began: this was exactly what was happening in the last month and a half of their training,” Ilana says.

There were other preliminary signs too, spotters says. More reports that they wrote, and sent, but whose whereabouts are unknown.

“They never told me what happened with the information we were passing on,” says another spotter, Adi. “We were constantly being told that there might be a terrorist infiltration, that it could happen.” Of course, the IDF needs to be prepared for such an incident, but apparently there was no concrete threat – no matter how many concrete events the spotters reported.

“In the last year, they started to remove pieces of iron from the fence,” says Adi, citing an example of what was written in another report that might be buried in some drawer somewhere. And there’s more.

“In my sector, they built a precise model of a Merkava IV tank and trained on it all the time,” says another spotter from the Gaza Division. “They trained on how to hit a tank with an RPG, where exactly to hit it and then, in front of our eyes, they trained on how to capture the tank crew.”

She says the spotters tried warning that these training exercises were actually increasing in intensity, “that there were more people taking part, and that they were being done with additional Hamas units coming in from other areas.”

They also noticed that vans and motorcycles were frequently being used in the training. And when protests started taking place by the border [in the months prior to the attack], they observed that “there are Hamas operatives who are constantly examining the places where we are less effective with the cameras. They really planned everything down to the smallest detail. Anyone who says today that it was unavoidable or that it was impossible to know – that’s a lie.”

In her words, ”They abandoned our friends to die because nobody wanted to listen to us. It’s beneath their dignity to listen to a sergeant – who for two years has been staring at the same screen and knows every stone, every grain of sand – tell them something contrary to what the senior intelligence officers are telling them. Who am I, some little woman, before a man with the rank of major or lieutenant colonel, for whom everybody stands at attention when he enters the room?”

‘They studied us in depth’

Forty fighters from the Golani Brigade’s 13th Battalion, some Bedouin trackers and three women combat soldiers from the artillery corps who were on standby: this was the entire force at Nahal Oz on the morning of Saturday October 7 facing hundreds of terrorists – a significant proportion of the 3,000 or so who infiltrated with vans, cars and motorcycles from the sea, land and air. The soldiers had no chance.

“They knew much more about us than we thought,” says another spotter, Liat. “Today I know, and my friends are also sure of it, that they studied us in depth. Not just where we were sitting and observing from. They did an insane job.”

A spotter who was on duty at one of the lookout posts that day says: “There were so many warning signals along the way. Hamas didn’t do this under the radar. It’s just that nobody thought to accept the opinion of some spotters when intelligence personnel were thinking completely differently.”

In April, Smadar sat at the lookout post in Kissufim and noticed something new at one of Hamas’ training camps. “They had built a precise model of the border area,“ she says. “They trained there on how to break through the fence. Contrary to what the IDF thought, their training was for infiltration on the ground, not from tunnels. As time passed, their training became more intensive.”

About a month and a half before the attack, that training apparently shifted up a gear.

“We started to see them getting 300 meters from the fence, and their trainers stood with stopwatches and measured how much time it took them to run to the fence, to reach it, and to return to their positions. We knew there was something [happening],” says Liat. According to her, even though disturbances were also taking place near the fence, “the forces we sent did practically nothing – even the warning shots stopped. Combat soldiers would arrive, fire tear gas and leave.”

Those reports, it seems, piled up in the rubbish heap of the tragedy.

A month before the war, there was an apparent change of approach among some spotters: A senior officer from the Gaza Division came to the operations room on one of the bases along the Gaza border in order to talk about the sector, so one of the spotters decided to tell him exactly what was on her mind.

“I told him there was going to be a war and we’re simply not ready,” she says, recalling the conversation. “That what’s happening with Hamas along the border fence is not normal. That they’re mocking the IDF, that our hands are tied and we’re not even [firing] warning shots.”

The response of the senior officer was to ask for her name, to regard her with admonishing eyes and to “put her in her place” for having the temerity to address him directly rather than going through the proper channels.

“He said to me, ‘I’ve been in the sector since 2010. I was a commander here, an intelligence officer, I know Gaza inside-out, and I’m telling you that everything’s fine. You’re here only six months and I’ve been here 12 years. I know the sector like the back of my hand.”

Someone who has known the sector for less time – but still in depth – is Einat, a spotter from Nahal Oz. That Saturday, she was at home (“in the safe room with the family”), but recognized immediately what was about to happen.

“As soon as I understood that there was such a large infiltration, I told [my family]: ‘There’s a Hamas raid, they’ll kidnap soldiers and charge into the residential communities.’ I even told them there was no way they weren’t coming with paragliders. They looked at me like I was crazy. I started shouting that we knew there would be something and no one would listen to us.”

Then the messages from friends at the base began to arrive, plus the photos and videos from Palestinians on Telegram. “We were seeing how they were murdering our friends and how they were being taken to Gaza,” she recalls. “I cannot describe the frustration, the sense of abandonment by the senior commanders. We issued warnings, we told our commanders, but we’re considered the bottom of the division’s food chain.”

In response to this article, the IDF Spokesperson’s Unit stated: “The IDF and its commanders are following all the male and female soldiers who were present during the events of October 7 closely. The male and female soldiers are accompanied by medical professionals from the mental health system. This is in addition to the continuous contact with their commanders, who are a support system and attentive ear. The return to their posts will be gradual and sensitive, supervised and according to the condition of each person. There is no intention of disciplinary measures against anyone. If there were any conversations that might suggest otherwise, they are contrary to the guidelines and will be dealt with accordingly.”

…………..

What a lot does not add up.

This is outrageous for the girls too.
It is some of these girls - those who were not killed on the day - who are still abandoned hostages over 400 days later and who particularly at risk for sexual abuse because being women and IDF. They were left undefended as well as unrespected. Their parents should have the government put on trial.

BoydTheApe · 18/11/2024 10:06

Auvergne63 · 17/11/2024 15:43

It is a legitimate question, not a cryptic one. Why did it take the IFD so long to respond? If I was a member the families of these people slaughtered and subjected to the most vile acts by Hamas, I would want to know, wouldn't you?

As has been mentioned, negligence and incompetence. I don't understand what you're trying to imply, or why you won't just come out and say it.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/11/2024 10:21

The people gathering intelligence were neither negligent nor incompetent.

What happened among the decision makers after they received it? There needs to be a full investigation before evidence is lost, though the leader lies and manipulates a bit like a Russian type leader, so it would be difficult.

Auvergne63 · 18/11/2024 10:34

BoydTheApe · 18/11/2024 10:06

As has been mentioned, negligence and incompetence. I don't understand what you're trying to imply, or why you won't just come out and say it.

Mossad incompetent? Really?

BoydTheApe · 18/11/2024 10:36

Auvergne63 · 18/11/2024 10:34

Mossad incompetent? Really?

So what are you saying?

Auvergne63 · 18/11/2024 12:19

BoydTheApe · 18/11/2024 10:36

So what are you saying?

What do you think I am saying? Are you going to persist in demanding an answer? Good luck with that!

BoydTheApe · 18/11/2024 12:25

Auvergne63 · 18/11/2024 12:19

What do you think I am saying? Are you going to persist in demanding an answer? Good luck with that!

I don't know what you're saying, that's why I'm asking. Seriously, I genuinely don't understand why you don't just say whatever it is you're trying to say.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread