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Conflict in the Middle East

Blessed are the Peacekeepers

43 replies

HelenHen · 15/10/2024 08:16

And may IDF and Hezbollah both follow international law to keep them safe.

An interesting read from a former Irish officer explaining the dangers facing the Peacekeepers

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/15/un-peacekeepers-lebanon-lives-on-line-israeli-army

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Opinion

Ireland’s peacekeepers in Lebanon are putting their lives on the line. I know – I was one of them
Tom Clonan

In 1996, I witnessed the horror as the Israeli army fired on UN positions. Now history is repeating itself
Tom Clonan is an independent senator in the Irish parliament and a retired Irish army officer
Tue 15 Oct 2024 07.00 BST
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The Irish armed forces have participated in UN peacekeeping missions for over 60 years. Since 1958, Ireland has sent troops to global conflicts on almost every continent. We have had a peacekeeping battalion with the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) in south Lebanon on a continuous basis since 1978. The relationship is so deep-rooted that in the Irish area of operations, close to the border with Israel, there are local Lebanese people who speak English with broad Irish accents.

As Israel intensifies its current ground assault in Lebanon, 380 Irish troops have found themselves in direct confrontation with the might of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). At UN position 6-52, near the border village of Maroun al-Ras, a platoon of 33 Irish troops was surrounded and isolated from UN headquarters by an IDF unit. Israeli troops have attempted to intimidate and threaten the young Irish men and women at 6-52 by positioning Merkava battle tanks on the perimeter of the post, with their 120mm main armaments aimed directly at them. A neighbouring Irish/Polish platoon at position 6-50 has witnessed Israeli forces destroying the small town of Yaroun during fierce fighting with Hezbollah.

None of this is new for the Irish. Over the decades, as peacekeepers, we have acted as de facto human shields, trying to protect innocent Lebanese civilians from Hezbollah on one hand and the IDF on the other. As neutral observers and first responders, we have lost almost 50 troops in Lebanon. Approximately 50% of our casualties have been inflicted by Islamist resistance groups such as Hezbollah – the other 50% by the IDF and their paramilitary proxies in the area. Most recently, Pte Seán Rooney was killed in December 2022; a Lebanese military tribunal accused five members of Hezbollah.

After Hamas’s horrific attack on 7 October last year, Hezbollah has fired thousands of rockets and missiles into northern Israel. Hezbollah, like Hamas – in direct contravention of the Geneva conventions – has targeted Israeli towns and villages from Haifa on the Mediterranean coast across to Kiryat Shmona and Tiberias. This has led to the internal displacement of more than 60,000 Israeli civilians, seeking to escape these barrages. There is a well-founded fear among many Israelis that Hezbollah might also mount a cross-border marauding attack on innocent men, women and children in northern Israeli settlements, similar to the Hamas attacks.

For its part, the IDF, at Netanyahu’s direction, has mounted a savage campaign of retaliation against Hamas in Gaza. In the conduct of its operations, the IDF appears to have has repeatedly and consistently broken the international laws of armed conflict; it has slaughtered more than 40,000 Gazans and maimed many tens of thousands more. The vast majority of these casualties have been innocent Palestinians, including almost 20,000 women and children.

For the Irish deployed to Unifil, as events unfold it is abundantly clear that the IDF is preparing to replicate its brutal assault on Gaza in Lebanon. The death toll in Lebanon, mostly among innocent civilians, already exceeds 2,000. This represents the same casualty rate as experienced in Gaza and has the potential to plunge Lebanon into the abyss. It also carries with it the risk of a direct confrontation between Israel and Iran. This is a moment of great danger for the 10,000 troops deployed to Unifil and particularly for the Irish deployed on the frontline along Israel’s advance.
I speak from experience, having served as an Irish peacekeeper in Lebanon. As a young officer in 1996, during Israel’s notorious operation Grapes of Wrath, I witnessed the destruction of the small villages and towns in our area of operation. Then, as now, the most vulnerable Lebanese civilians were unable to evacuate or flee the Israeli onslaught. Elderly people, disabled people and young mothers nursing infants were unable to escape.

In the midst of the destruction, we took almost 200 civilians into our UN position. We shared our meagre rations, water and medical supplies with these terrified people. Our neighbouring UN position at the village of Qana also took in civilians. However, it was directly targeted by the IDF and over 100 men, women and children were slaughtered there in shelling on 18 April 1996.

The situation in Lebanon is much worse today. The IDF has for the most part abandoned the traditional military doctrine of “advance to contact” operations, where armies tactically respond to enemy fire. The IDF in Gaza and now Lebanon is operating what military analysts term a doctrine of “reconnaissance by fire”, where it pre-emptively opens fire on everything and everyone its forces encounter in their advance to deter ambushes. In this, they do not distinguish between either Hamas and Hezbollah targets and civilians or civilian objects. Hence the shockingly high civilian casualty rates. As I write, the IDF has opened fire on UN positions injuring five peacekeepers.
In all of its previous incursions into Lebanon, the IDF has killed UN peacekeepers and UN observers. All that the Irish can do is observe, record and report the actions of all parties to the conflict. They will hope to save lives and they will hope to survive and return home to their families. Blessed are the peacekeepers.

Tom Clonan is an independent senator in the Irish parliament and a retired army officer

Ireland's peacekeepers in Lebanon are putting their lives on the line. I know – I was one of them | Tom Clonan

In 1996, I witnessed the horror as the Israeli army fired on UN positions. Now history is repeating itself, says Irish senator Tom Clonan

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/15/un-peacekeepers-lebanon-lives-on-line-israeli-army

OP posts:
YankeeDad · 16/10/2024 17:03

EasterIssland · 16/10/2024 16:19

Probably the solution should not be to kill innocent civilians.

I recommend you explain that to Hamas and Hezbollah, and come back to us when you have convinced them to stop doing that.

GhostCicada · 16/10/2024 17:08

YankeeDad · 16/10/2024 14:59

It is not that simple.

IDF does not belong in Lebanon, except that if Hezbollah sits just inside the Lebanese border raining rockets on top of Israeli villages, what is Israel supposed to do? Smile and say “Thank you Sir, may I have another?”

And what should Lebanons response to the IDFs 1000s upon 1000s of breaches of the border and the terror they bring upon Lebanese civillians? Bomb the shit out of Israel? I presume you support Lebanon invading Israel and bombing the homes of military figures whilst their children are sleeping?

EasterIssland · 16/10/2024 17:15

YankeeDad · 16/10/2024 17:03

I recommend you explain that to Hamas and Hezbollah, and come back to us when you have convinced them to stop doing that.

Didn’t you forget to add Nentanhayu and IDF in your sentence ?

YankeeDad · 16/10/2024 17:32

EasterIssland · 16/10/2024 17:15

Didn’t you forget to add Nentanhayu and IDF in your sentence ?

I agree that we also want Netanyahu to stop killing civilians. He is a murderous prick.

Unfortunately, any successor government would face a similar problem: if Israel were to take 100% perfect measures to avoid killing any civilians Israel, then they would have to stop taking any measures whatsoever against Hezbollah or Hamas or any of the other various groups who want all of the Jews to either leave the region or die, because these groups are absolute masters of hiding themselves within or beneath hospitals, schools, civilian homes, etc. in order to ensure that any action against them will also result in civilian casualties.

Meanwhile when the likes of Hamas kill, mutilate, rape, or abduct civilians, or when Hezbollah rains down thousands of rockets onto Israel, it is either denied or justified in the name of "resistance."

YankeeDad · 16/10/2024 17:33

GhostCicada · 16/10/2024 17:08

And what should Lebanons response to the IDFs 1000s upon 1000s of breaches of the border and the terror they bring upon Lebanese civillians? Bomb the shit out of Israel? I presume you support Lebanon invading Israel and bombing the homes of military figures whilst their children are sleeping?

If Lebanon would prevent Hezbollah from bombing the Israelis from its territory, then I very much doubt whether IDF would be doing anything at all in Lebanon.

GhostCicada · 16/10/2024 18:24

YankeeDad · 16/10/2024 17:33

If Lebanon would prevent Hezbollah from bombing the Israelis from its territory, then I very much doubt whether IDF would be doing anything at all in Lebanon.

How do you know that it isn't the other way around? It's not like Hezbollahs very existence is down to Israels occupation of Lebanon or anything. I'll take it thats a no then, you wouldn't support Lebanon taking action over Israels incessant breaches of the border?

Kindatired · 16/10/2024 18:33

User37482 · 15/10/2024 21:08

They really should be removed tbh. It’s now a warzone, they were there to ensure Hezbollah stayed behind the Litani river and they didn’t do that. They also don’t appear to have noticed all the tunnels popping up everywhere.

If they had actually done their job and Hezbollah had observed the agreement this wouldn’t be happening. I think it’s frankly stupid and callous to leave them in position. They should be moved because they aren’t doing anything anyway.

Not true.
You are referring to peace enforcement

YankeeDad · 16/10/2024 22:10

GhostCicada · 16/10/2024 18:24

How do you know that it isn't the other way around? It's not like Hezbollahs very existence is down to Israels occupation of Lebanon or anything. I'll take it thats a no then, you wouldn't support Lebanon taking action over Israels incessant breaches of the border?

Edited

While Hezbollah was founded following the invasion of South Lebanon by Israel, they were not the first in the region to have the total elimination of the State of Israel as one of its core aims.

Before that you had the PLO in South Lebanon launching attacks on Israel, and you had several states in the region wanting to eliminate Israel. Obviously the invasion did not go how they wanted because it resulted in instead having Hezbollah (funded by Iran among others) active in South Lebanon and aiming to tally eliminate Israel.

They are totally surrounded by much larger countries with larger populations who all have a history of trying to eliminate Israel as a State and a track record of forcing Jews within those other countries to either leave or die. It does not make everything they are doing right, but it is a perspective that seems to get left aside in many discussions.

Kindatired · 16/10/2024 23:34

@yankee so Israel is surrounded by hostile states, those most immediately adjacent being populated in part by the former inhabitants of the lands currently occupied by Israel. We get it because we’re not stupid. But it is not possible to accept this as an excuse for the barbaric actions of Israel and this is the reason that this perspective is “set aside”- it lacks validity. What you are saying is a version of “ it’s a proxy war and brave little Israel, the only “democracy “ in the Middle East is defending the free world story” . It is part of the same stable as

  1. They made us do it
  2. They started it
  3. Its them or us, it’s an existential threat
  4. Its antisemitism because the hunger in Sudan is worse etc
  5. It’s not happening/ the source of the information is unreliable/ discredited/antisemitic
No, you need to look into your heart and ask if your arguments justify starving innocent people, carpet bombing people in tents, burning sick people alive, shooting children in the head, desecrating places of worship , desecration of bodies, targeting of hospitals, schools, journalists, aid workers, medics,
YankeeDad · 17/10/2024 19:59

Kindatired · 16/10/2024 23:34

@yankee so Israel is surrounded by hostile states, those most immediately adjacent being populated in part by the former inhabitants of the lands currently occupied by Israel. We get it because we’re not stupid. But it is not possible to accept this as an excuse for the barbaric actions of Israel and this is the reason that this perspective is “set aside”- it lacks validity. What you are saying is a version of “ it’s a proxy war and brave little Israel, the only “democracy “ in the Middle East is defending the free world story” . It is part of the same stable as

  1. They made us do it
  2. They started it
  3. Its them or us, it’s an existential threat
  4. Its antisemitism because the hunger in Sudan is worse etc
  5. It’s not happening/ the source of the information is unreliable/ discredited/antisemitic
No, you need to look into your heart and ask if your arguments justify starving innocent people, carpet bombing people in tents, burning sick people alive, shooting children in the head, desecrating places of worship , desecration of bodies, targeting of hospitals, schools, journalists, aid workers, medics,

Actually I have not said anything about Israel defending the free world, nor about the hunger in Sudan, nor that Israel is not killing civilians.

But there IS an existential threat to Israel.

If Israel’s neighbours would stop trying to wipe them out then maybe they would stop electing murderous hardliners as their leaders.

Does anyone really believe that if Israel were to withdraw to pre 1967 borders and stop all military activity outside of those borders, their neighbours would accept their existence as a State within those borders and stop trying to kill them or drive them out, “from the river to the sea”?

Kindatired · 17/10/2024 20:28

I didn’t say you’d made those arguments yourself, I said the point you were making came from the same stable as those made by other apologists for the genocidal-type actions of Israel.
Hamas has never posed an existential threat to Israel. Hezbollah could drain the air defence system with persistence and could take out the power grid intermittently but ultimately Hezbollah is backed by Iran. So if Israel wants to avoid continuous war with Iran backed proxies, it should stop stealing land and try and do a land deal with its immediate neighbours. But instead Netanyahu is trying to get Americans embroiled in a wider war to weaken Iran in order to support a Jewish supremist regime. The same regime that is gradually annexing the whole of the Holy Land on the pretext of Israeli self defence.

1dayatatime · 17/10/2024 21:33

@Kindatired

• "Its antisemitism because the hunger in Sudan is worse etc"

I think the death of 150k mainly black Christian Sudanese plus the ongoing slave trade is a tad worse than "hunger" or do black Christian Africans not matter?

Kindatired · 17/10/2024 23:05

@1dayatatime Both situations are terrible and exist at the same time. But the atrocities in Sudan don’t make those in Gaza less atrocious and they don’t make the Israeli government and those Israelis who support Netanyahu any less guilty.

You are basically proving my point that apologists for Israel trot out the same propaganda in the hope that if it’s been repeated often enough that it will be believed.

Are you the same poster that was denying the number of deaths in Gaza the other night?

1dayatatime · 18/10/2024 08:28

"@1dayatatime Both situations are terrible and exist at the same time. But the atrocities in Sudan don’t make those in Gaza less atrocious and they don’t make the Israeli government and those Israelis who support Netanyahu any less guilty.

You are basically proving my point that apologists for Israel trot out the same propaganda in the hope that if it’s been repeated often enough that it will be believed. "

I totally agree that both situations are terrible and can exist at the same time. I also agree that atrocities in Sudan don't not minimise or make those atrocities in Gaza less atrocious.

However describing 150k deaths in Sudan and slave trading as "going hungry " is most definitely minimising the atrocities in Sudan. Which then raises the question of why do this?

Is it because the victims are African?
Is it because the victims are black?
Is it because the victims are Christian?
Is it because the perpetrators are Muslim?
Can slavery now be ignored?
Is it because there is no Western involvement, just Egypt and UAE?

This is not trotting out propaganda, the conflict and deaths in Sudan are well documented - but please feel free to challenge this. To very clear what is happening in Sudan does not in any way justify or minimise what is happening in Gaza.

But what is important is to understand which of the above reasons is why the Sudanese conflict is under reported, which of the above reasons is why no one bothers protesting about it and which of the above reasons is why some would want to try to down play it as just "going hungry ".

1dayatatime · 18/10/2024 08:35

@Kindatired

"Are you the same poster that was denying the number of deaths in Gaza the other night?"

My comment on the number of deaths in Gaza was as follows:

"Yes there are people who believe that the figures from the Hamas health ministry are too high and some people that believe the figures are too low. There is no accurate way to determine either way whilst the conflict is ongoing."

I would not describe that statement as a denial of the number of deaths in Gaza.

GhostCicada · 18/10/2024 08:48

1dayatatime · 18/10/2024 08:28

"@1dayatatime Both situations are terrible and exist at the same time. But the atrocities in Sudan don’t make those in Gaza less atrocious and they don’t make the Israeli government and those Israelis who support Netanyahu any less guilty.

You are basically proving my point that apologists for Israel trot out the same propaganda in the hope that if it’s been repeated often enough that it will be believed. "

I totally agree that both situations are terrible and can exist at the same time. I also agree that atrocities in Sudan don't not minimise or make those atrocities in Gaza less atrocious.

However describing 150k deaths in Sudan and slave trading as "going hungry " is most definitely minimising the atrocities in Sudan. Which then raises the question of why do this?

Is it because the victims are African?
Is it because the victims are black?
Is it because the victims are Christian?
Is it because the perpetrators are Muslim?
Can slavery now be ignored?
Is it because there is no Western involvement, just Egypt and UAE?

This is not trotting out propaganda, the conflict and deaths in Sudan are well documented - but please feel free to challenge this. To very clear what is happening in Sudan does not in any way justify or minimise what is happening in Gaza.

But what is important is to understand which of the above reasons is why the Sudanese conflict is under reported, which of the above reasons is why no one bothers protesting about it and which of the above reasons is why some would want to try to down play it as just "going hungry ".

Or is it just because their is no western support or what is happening in Sudan. There seems to be universal agreement that it is awful. For some reason the same can't be said for what is happening on Gaza, calling for a ceasefire is seen by some as controversial, some people claim that Israel have no responsibility whatsoever for what is happening in Gaza, some people refuse to accept that Israel are committing apartheid, they refuse to accept basic facts like Gaza is under military occupation. Is the same happening with Sudan? Are large numbers of Western people refusing to even acknowledge the facts of what is happening? Because this is where the controversy and the millions of online comments stem from. The fact that some people including Western leaders appear to dismiss or deny what is actually happening.

Going a long way back now but there was actually a thread here full of people making excuses for why a young boy deserved to be shot in the head as he ran away from the IDF, this is just one of many shocking things I have seen here and across the Internet something I don't see happening in regards to conflicts elsewhere. Seeing people excuse extreme violence, especially towards children is always going flare tensions and get people talking in a way that everybody condemning violence towards children doesn't.

1dayatatime · 18/10/2024 09:25

@GhostCicada

"Seeing people excuse extreme violence, especially towards children is always going flare tensions and get people talking in a way that everybody condemning violence towards children doesn't."

I totally get why emotionally, seeing coverage of extreme violence towards children and any justification for this (which you will always have someone on the internet crawling out of the woodwork to do) will absolutely inflame people's opinions.

But this doesn't explain why there is minimal media coverage of the Sudanese conflict, other than the reasons I outlined.

I'm sure there are cases of extreme violence to children in Sudan, as well as cases of children being sold into slavery. I am equally sure that even if there was coverage then you would also get someone on the internet justifying violence or slavery against children, just as some posters on this thread dismiss what is happening in Sudan as just "going hungry ".

But the fact is that there is no widespread media coverage or protests about what is happening in Sudan, so people don't find out about it and it doesn't become a big political issue.

GhostCicada · 18/10/2024 10:05

1dayatatime · 18/10/2024 09:25

@GhostCicada

"Seeing people excuse extreme violence, especially towards children is always going flare tensions and get people talking in a way that everybody condemning violence towards children doesn't."

I totally get why emotionally, seeing coverage of extreme violence towards children and any justification for this (which you will always have someone on the internet crawling out of the woodwork to do) will absolutely inflame people's opinions.

But this doesn't explain why there is minimal media coverage of the Sudanese conflict, other than the reasons I outlined.

I'm sure there are cases of extreme violence to children in Sudan, as well as cases of children being sold into slavery. I am equally sure that even if there was coverage then you would also get someone on the internet justifying violence or slavery against children, just as some posters on this thread dismiss what is happening in Sudan as just "going hungry ".

But the fact is that there is no widespread media coverage or protests about what is happening in Sudan, so people don't find out about it and it doesn't become a big political issue.

But the fact is that there is no widespread media coverage or protests about what is happening in Sudan, so people don't find out about it and it doesn't become a big political issue.

Because people don't have to protest to make their governments see that what is happening in Sudan is wrong. They have condemned what is happening in Sudan, for a long time the British government refused to accept that there was anything to be condemned about Israels actions. Still they are pussy footing around. There are far fewer protests in Ireland for example where the government openly condemns Israels actions.

For the media it's because controversy gets clicks and this conflict has stirred up a lot of controversy.

And it wasn't just a few people crawling out of the woodwork to excuse an 8 year old boy being shot it the head, it was a mainstream opinion that was seem by lots of people as acceptable to air. Do you really think that with more coverage of what is happening in Sudan people would watch a video of an 8yo boy living under apartheid be executed whilst running for his life and opinion would almost be 50/50 split on whether he deserved that or not? I really don't think it would. That is what has made what is happening in Palestine/Israel so unique.

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