Hezbollah and Iran 'poised to attack Israel this week'

[Moreofthesamenothanks]

https://news.sky.com/story/hezbollah-and-iran-poised-to-attack-israel-this-week-as-region-on-brink-of-dangerous-escalation-13196134

I assumed it was a guess because you said it was.

No, like I said I have seen pro Palestinian posters here consistently condemn violence, I have seen them consistently look for legal justice, I have seen nothing that would indicate suddenly after months of being loudly anti war and anti violence that that stance would change.

For anyone who has not seen it, BBC TV news on just now reported that Hezbollah said they have completed their retaliation for the assassination and have finished now. The report also said the atmosphere is calmer than it had been after a month of suspense.

That's great news. I hope that calm stays.

And the many rockets Hezbollah has been firing into Israel for 10 months now was for what?

Hezbollah said they have completed their retaliation for the assassination and have finished now.

I'll bet they did. And they really, really mean it this time.

No I personally do not think you share Ben-Givr’s beliefs on other issues just because you are both Zionists. Not that I would have known you were a Zionist.

Misconception though it may be, ordinary people would think Ben-Givr epitomised Zionism, while thinking someone with your beliefs is not a Zionist.
You may call that disingenuous at best but I am not sure why. It is ignorance at best.

Another poster on here once explained to me that indeed someone who believes Israel is their homeland, can also believe that Palestinians should have their own state, and be a Zionist.

I respect what she said and was grateful for the explanation. Nevertheless I don’t use the term ‘Zionist’ because its meaning in common use seems to have become unclear in practice so it can be confusing.

The extreme far-right beliefs of a certain faction seem to be associated with an idea that all the land is theirs, including the West Bank. That unfortunately is perceived as Zionism.

It is unfortunate that that far right extreme group have so much power.

It seems a shame that the response to Jews who've taken the time to politely explain the meaning of what a Zionist is and what the term means to them is that you'll be continuing to redefine and misappropriate that term because you know better how it's perceived by "ordinary people" and therefore it now espouses far-right extremism rather than the belief in Jewish self-determination in their own homeland. Telling a Zionist that someone with their beliefs is not considered a Zionist due to its meaning being reclassified by a group of ordinary people who are avowedly anti-Zionist and therefore actively seek to invalidate Zionism,* *as if that's a totally reasonable thing to do to a particular minority group regarding their own terms, beliefs and definitions.

People struggle with the concept of Zionist Jews believing Palestinians also have the right to their own state if it clashes with their own preferred definition of Zionist Jews being exclusively extremist right wing land grabbers, which is a definition anti-Zionists have worked very hard to make the dominating narrative. If you can acknowledge it's a misconception, why aren't you doing anything to challenge it rather than reinforce it?

this is awful. It’s all just chaos. And look how many Palestinians have been killed. It is all just out of control and inhumane at this point.

Who will end this bloodshed!

Who will end this bloodshed!

I get the impression Hezbollah aren't particularly committed to peace (neither with Israel nor in Lebanon) so probably not them.

@ScrollingLeaves I've not been on this board before but I've been reading the comments about the interpretation of the word Zionist.
I'm embarrassed to say that my understanding was what you describe and that I had the idea that Zionism = extremism.
You're not wrong in saying that this is a common misconception.

It shows just how successful the anti-Israel propaganda is and proves that the word has, in fact, been misappropriated.

Hopefully you have taken onboard what we're saying and you and others on here can now use the word correctly moving forward. The last thing the world needs is more hateful propaganda being spread.

To be clear - being a Zionist means you believe in the right for Jewish self-determination in a (predominantly) Jewish state in the ancestral Jewish homeland. It does NOT mean you don't believe in a two state solution. As such, if someone says they're anti-Zionist, what they're actually saying is they are against Jewish self-determination and against the existence of the state of Israel. It means you don't think Jewish people should have the same rights as you think everyone else is entitled to. Being anti-Zionist is being racist, so seeing "anti-Zionism" placards at the recent "anti-racism" marches was spectacularly mind-blowing.

I'm a Zionist who wants a peaceful two-state solution.

Don't worry , I've been educated.
I mainly posted because @ScrollingLeaves made a comment about ordinary people using the term to refer to extremists and I believe this is correct.
The comment is ,IMO, correct. Not that people are correct to hold that view.

It's interesting that although I never mentioned the "Pro-Palestinian posters", you automatically assumed that's who I was referring to and felt the need to jump to such an elaborate defence.

I've often seen "I hope Israel get what it deserves" posted on this board so I guess that extends to the sentiment that death, injury and destruction inflicted upon innocent people is acceptable and justifiable as long as it's Jews, followed by the predictable outrage when the Israelis take steps to prevent Iran and its proxies attacking

You stated I've often seen "I hope Israel get what it deserves" posted on this board which would suggest you are referring to people that post on this board with your further statement of so I guess that extends to the sentiment that death, injury and destruction inflicted upon innocent people is acceptable and justifiable as long as it's Jews,

If you don't mean posters on these boards you might want to delete and rephrase your post.

No thanks.

This is the problem. People redefine Zionism. Some people mean the broad, proper definition, which is anyone who supports the existence of Israel.

And let's be clear: There absolutely are people, and this includes the anti-Zionist Jews I know, who believe that the state of Israel should not exist and that the two state solution is racist. Their response is a single state of Palestine or a binational state.

We have a real problem where people argue past each other because they do not even understand the underlying arguments and assume "Zionist = war supporter" and meanwhile other people are using the same language to assail anyone who has the vaguest belief in the existence of a country. Given the history involved and Britain's key role in it, I think it;s arrogant of me to turn around and demand Israel stop existing altogether.

It's a real shame, and an example of the power language can have - similar to the Islamic/Islamist misunderstandings.

Zionism as a word isn't extremist, but its misappropriation and misuse by fringe elements now mean a depressing number of people see it as first and foremost representing extremist views. Then, people end up expressing their own views opposing that extremism, in language that actually expresses hostility towards a much larger and diverse group, causing more harm and distress.

I don't think Netanyahu, his allies, Sinwar et al, Hezbollah or Iran are very interested in stopping bloodshed. At this point I think the best hope is external pressure from the US (none of the major parties in this conflict care that much about things like the UN, but the US facilitating this is helping keep it going).

And meanwhile, innocent people suffer and die.

What? It's interesting that I didn't think you were talking about pro Israel posters when you spoke about posters on this board saying 'I hope Israel get what they deserve'? Like I said in a previous post I have seen pro Palestinian posters hoping that Palestinians get justice and that Israel are held to account in court. I haven't seen any pro Israel posters looking for independent investigations into Israels behaviour, being in favour of the ICJ or ICC, so yeah I would presume you were talking about pro Palestinian posters not the Pro Israel posters who don't seem to have any interest at all in finding out the truth of what is happening nevermind prosecutions of those involved.

My issue is with your leap that posters hoping Israel are held to account via lawful methods means that they are wishing death and destruction on Jews. A leap you seem completely unable to explain.

Bibi could not give a fig what the US thinks. There's speculation he wants to keep this going past the election in order to affect it by depressing Democratic turnout.

Remember, he's facing indictment, is vastly unpopular in Israel, and is propped up by far right fringe parties. Changing tack would be the end of his political career.

Agree with this.
I see lots of demonstrations calling for elections in Israel but how does it work? Is there set times when elections are held or can they be called earlier on? Although I doubt Netanyahu would call on early elections.
It's pretty crap all around at the moment, depressing would be an understatement 😭

No, it's the misappropriation and misuse by primarily non-Jewish anti-Zionists/anti-Israelists to dominate and associate it first and foremost with extremist fringe elements, who don't represent the majority of Jews and their Zionist beliefs, rather than listening to or amplifying more rational, insightful voices.

People end up expressing their own views towards "Zionists" with hostility because it's a conveniently veiled way for them to express their racism and enmity towards Jews and invalidate the belief that Jews are equally as worthy of human rights and a homeland as everybody else. We didn't ask to be forced into an eternal diaspora and a worrying number of people seem to be over-invested in returning Jews to that state of vulnerability.

Comments like this also reinforce the corrupted redefinition of Zionism in an attempt to bond a key tenet of Jewish identity with the extremism practised by the fringe, rather than acknowledging that extremists would act this way because they're terrible people-regardless of their ethnicity, beliefs or religion, not because of them. It does nothing to challenge the way in which it's been misappropriated to harm Jews.

If you oppose extremism, then just say that. If a depressing number of people see Zionism as first and foremost representing extremist views it's because they're predisposed to taking that option to justify their own prejudice and I haven't seen a lot of effort being made to disabuse them of that notion, versus the efforts to justify why this is the narrative so willingly taken up and amplified by those who claim to be on the side of peace, justice and co-operation.

I do think it is. As tho who ‘ordinary people’ are, and what they think ‘Zionism’ is, which I saw another poster had questioned, of course that phrase I used is difficult to define.

This excerpt from a Haaretz article seems to ask the same question.

^“Haaretz Today” April 24
What the Hell Is a Zionist?^
The word 'Zionist' now pervades posts and comment sections across the Internet. Here's what happened when I asked people on the social media site X what it means

The Internet has discovered a new word. While it's been in use for generations in certain corners, it's really taken off among new and diverse communities over the past six months. Like students in a foreign exchange program with new vocabulary, people seem to be working the word into each sentence and context, whether it fits or not. It now pervades posts and comments sections on TikTok, the home of Gen Z; Instagram, the home of millennials; and X, the home of people who fall for crypto scams.

”The word is "Zionist," a flexible term that can refer to a wide range of people, behaviors and beliefs. It has been applied to fanatical Jewish supremacists, people who endorse a two-state solution, conscientious objectors to the IDF – who nonetheless condemn Hamas – and a K-pop star who held a Starbucks cup, among others. There are those who declare themselves staunch anti-Zionists because they oppose the policies of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/bwCYV/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-10/ty-article-magazine/.premium/numbers-that-stagger-the-imagination-theres-no-way-to-quantify-the-suffering-in-gaza/0000018e-c1db-d480-a99e-cfdf01240000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> and the carnage in Gaza, but still might meet someone else's definition of Zionism if they don't believe that Israelis should be expelled from the Levant.

To clear up this confusion, I asked people on X to put a moratorium on the word for clarity's sake: When they say Zionist, are they talking about National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/bwCYV/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-11-10/ty-article/.premium/he-was-about-love-israels-ben-gvir-to-take-part-in-kahanes-memorial/00000184-6192-da1f-afd5-efd677e00000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">and his Kahanist ilk? Are they talking about anyone who advocates for anything but the dismantling of Israel? Are they talking about Jewish people in general, who they don't like for reasons unrelated <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/bwCYV/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-05-26/ty-article/zionist-arabs-trains-from-berlin-what-herzl-got-wrong-about-israel/00000181-000f-d55c-a189-b5bfa9bb0000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">to Theodor Herzl?

The responses were mixed to negative, with some agreeing, a few people saying that they meant "all of the above," people saying that Zionists are Nazis and those who told me that I'm actually worse than Ben-Gvir (I did not take a political or philosophical stance). People also called me a white supremacist European settler colonizer, which stung, because it meant I failed at my duty to remind everyone that I am Syrian every 15 minutes. I also got called a Zionist a lot, though my accusers did not clarify what they meant by it.

This trend is pretty frightening to the general Jewish community for several reasons. There is the obvious one, that <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/bwCYV/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-28/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/why-israel-should-stick-to-the-original-version-of-zionism/00000189-9e0b-d00f-a7db-bf9ba2490000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">the word "Zionist" sometimes, if not often, provides cover for antisemites who have realized that there may be consequences to using the word "Jew." But there is also the fact that this divergent terminology forms a growing wedge between the majority of Jews, who consider themselves Zionists (meaning, to them, that they support the self-determination of the Jewish people in all or part of the biblical Land of Israel) and a growing group who consider themselves anti-Zionist (meaning, to them, that they don't support a system that uplifts Jews by oppressing Palestinians).

This divide empowers extremists who want to see Israelis or Palestinians removed from the land and marginalizes would-be peacemakers, who believe in and work toward a future in which both nations can thrive. It's all but certain to deepen.