New Jerusalem - 2 state solution

[mids2019]

If there is a 2 state solution how will it work with Jerusalem being the capital of two states?

Will there need to be a wall in the city to mark an Israeli and Palestinian side for governance or border control?

If there is a free flow of people of different states and religion I.e.a mixed capital how would you determine law that would be applicable to all Jerusalem's citizens.

This doesn't really matter - actually it's one of the issues which was often put to the back of the list during peace talks because the key obstacle is not Jerusalem.

The crux of failure of a two state solution is that the Palestinian side will not accept a two state solution that does not give them the right to live in Israel, all Palestinians, even ones who have never been to Israel.

Israel will never agree to this, because if they did, Palestinians would have a majority of Israel's population overnight and thus it would de facto cease to be two states, and would be one big, Palestinian state in real terms.

Which defeats the object of there being an Israel to begin with.

The only possibility of an agreement for two states is for the Palestinian side to accept their bit is their bit and the other bit is not.

I am sure if that could be agreed on, then Israel would capitulate to most other things and a shared and peaceful agreement for Jerusalem could be reached.

@LemonyTicket

Thanks for that analysis. In my view one of the complications of co existence is that there very much is a difference in value sets between the two populations and mutual sharing of territory would be unworkable as the Paletinians would want an Islamic state with religious based law and obviously that is incompatible with the Israel's democracy and liberties. Basically you can't have two laws for one land.

In really do need your point finding a 2 state solution is full of challenges and one possibly insurmountable challenge is that Palestinians will always pay claim to Israel as a whole so a peaceful co-existence of Israel with a neighbour who wishes it not to exist is a big ask.

I think Jerusalem is a special case, as it has such significance to the Jewish, Christian, Muslim and Armenian people. It would be nice to see it as governed by a coalition of leaders from these communities who would work co-operatively to maintain its special character of religious and cultural tolerance and diversity. I wonder if it needs to be a capital for either Israel or Palestine in any future 2SS. Agreements over how to share the land are further complicated by limited resources in a small area. Who gets the coast? Who has access to water sources? Who gets fertile areas and who gets the desert? It may also be better to offer compensation to those who were displaced as refugees rather than nothing.

@stormy4319trevor

There is so much to debate about the practicality of a 2 state solution. I think @LemonyTicket makes a good point in that if you allowed unfettered immigration until Israel then if the Jews are in a minority of would not exist as Israel in reality. Even if left a democracy the majority Palestinians (?) would change the countries flag, anthem, constitution, laws etc. so that is a non starter. Basically you would have just another Islamic state in the middle East and given the way Hamas treated Jews in October and they were is some kind of power that would indeed be grim.

I think even though it's not a priority for any 2SS the religious symbolism of Jerusalem does cause problems in a religious region of the world. To the Jews Jerusalem holds Zion if you are of a particular depth of faith and it is the third holiest city in Islam. of course the city has religious significance to Christians.

I don't know if you could partition or govern the city to accommodate all religious desires?

The Jews have a family gathering with a few glasses of wine. There would have to be less making drinking illegal in some parts of the city presumably as Jews drinking in an area which the Palestinians deemed there capital might cause a few problems as well as maybe Palestinians themselves wanting a drink if they were not particularly devout.

You can be a gay man in Israel so would gay people have to stay in certain Jewsish parts of a joint capital? Would the Palestinians allow homosexuality in this one city as kind of compromise?

Sounds like a nightmare.....

A two-state solution has never really been realistic, for the reasons Lemony gives.

It ultimately boils down to whether two separate states would lessen demands for the annihilation of Israel. Since it obviously would do so, there’ll never be agreement about it from the Palestinian side.

@mids2019 Despite the tensions, the quarters were so vibrant in their different characters. I wonder if the difference in each quarter could be maintained, but an amicable working group of representatives could make overall decisions for the welfare of the city. To take the heat out of it, I wonder if it should not be a Capital city for anyone, as both Israel and a proposed state of Palestine could designate other cities as Capitals.

@stormy4319trevor

I guess but I don't know if Israel and Palestinians could accept this. Isn't the government of Israel in Jerusmal currently. It would be an interesting diplomatic exercise to have Jerusalem a city of global significance governed by some international body.....

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying

Nail on head.

that's the reality before speculation on Jerusalem I guess.

Israel can’t function without access to cheap Palestinian manual labour. If Palestinian options open & they get the ability to move across mena, Israel would be finished. This is why it’s Israel now opposing a 2 State solution

@mids2019 Some sort of autonomous city, I am envisioning. I'm sure it would not be the first preference of many Israelis or Palestinians, but I do think a peaceful Jerusalem, a place reserved for harmonious co-existence, would be good for the region and the world.

The only possibility of an agreement for two states is for the Palestinian side to accept their bit is their bit and the other bit is not

And wouldn’t it need to be added to this that the Israeli government, and certain Israeli people, would need to accept that “the Israelis’ bit is their bit and the other bit is not”?

This is a transcript of an interview with Daniela Weiss, founder of the Settler Movement I saw on a documentary about the treatment of Palestinian children by the Israeli State/IDF someone posted:

Documentary voice: In the 1970s Daniela Weiss would regularly meet Ariel Sharon, then Minister for agriculture, to plan the settlements so no Palestian State could emerge.

Interviewer: “You and Ariel Sharron were determined there would not be a Palestinian State?”^

D.W. ”With my work with Arial Sharron there was a very clear understanding, very clear planning, of spreading the Jewish communities in the way that there will be no option for a Palestinian state in Judea and Sumeria”.

Documentary.”Despite international condemnation settlement growth is surging”.

Interviewer: “If a Palestian child said to you, “What is the hope for me, for my own future, to have my own state? What would you say to that child?”^

D.W. “This land. Was promised. To the Jews. By God. ….. - and - ALL of it”.

“It’s true that on course of history Arabs came to this area from all over; but the promise of God is MORE important than the changes in history and the political changes.

That’s why you have to put it deep into your mind that you have no chance whatsoever in any point of history - neither you nor any of your offspring to ever have an independent state

or here is an Israeli religious school where a child mentions one day Arabs will be their slaves, and another mentions the destruction of Al Aqsa Mosque that will happen.

Then there are the men like Smotrich and Ben-Givr in the way.

Of course not all Israelis think this way at all, but impediments to a solution are not all down to the unreasonable Palestinians.

I forgot this link to the Israeli religious school where a child says that one day Arabs will be their slaves, and another says Al Aqsa Mosque will be destroyed.
www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170727-jewish-students-arabs-are-slaves/

Agree. Palestinians have to do it. What about Israelis ? Why is idf blocking access to a mosque and attacking Muslim Palestinians that want to pray in the mosque during Ramadan at the moment. Will these be allowed in the future 2 state solution ?