Long term solutions.

[Itoosurvive]

Since its formation, Israel has had an ever deteriorating relationship with the Palestinians. Something has to change. A few of my thoughts about what a peace deal might look like. I’m ready to be told how implausible you might think them to be.

In order for a peace process to work, both Israeli negotiators and their Palestinian counterparts must genuinely want to be working for a long term peace. It’s not about bargaining and scoring points, but about assurances and guarantees.

An absolute, immediate, ceasefire.
Withdraw all IDF from Gaza.
Release all hostages.
Open Gaza borders
Supply aid

Israel, Hamas, Hezbullah and PA sit down alongside a mediating party (Norway?) and start discussions about how to work out a 2 state solution with a view to making every tomorrow slightly less miserable than every today.

Hamas to remain in government. Palestinians must at least be allowed to retain some dignity. A long term peace will never be achieved through one side crushing the other.
Palestinians guarantee cessation of all violent acts on Israel and Israelis. Hamas disarm and disbands its military arm. The remaining Hamas government will also have to show that it is making a genuine effort to outlaw violence.
There will be splinter groups that carry on violent acts and it will up to the Palestinian people that want peace and the Hamas authority (and also if needed, external bodies) to ensure that anti-Israel acts are neutralised.

Both parties must drop the hate. There will be no revenge for either October 7 or the devastation of Gaza and its population. You cannot insist on punishment for anyone. The terrorists believed what they were doing was right, but they were wrong, just as the Israelis believe themselves to be right but they too are wrong. Retribution and revenge won’t work .
By following up these atrocities, you are carrying forward with you the “shit days”. They are finished. The dead are dead, the only possible thing we can do in their honour is try to do our best to prevent a repeat of what took them away in the first place.

There will be amnesty. For Israel to prove that it genuinely wants peace, it should release all Palestinians detained. Each side has to keep on proving to the other that non-violence is the way forward.

The PR side of this is telling both Palestinian and Israeli populations that it is in both their best interests to go along with the process that happening. It’s a big PR “sell” to each camp.

The line that Hamas takes is “Sorry, we didn’t quite get agreement on article 14 where we can eradicate the Zionist project, but the good news is we’re all going to have a better standard of living, the Israelis have taken their boots off our throats and we’ve got the opportunity to develop. Oh yes, and there’s lot of foreign aid and investment coming in as well. “

The line that Israel takes is “All the time we keep going on about all that we want to do is just live in peace, well now’s the chance.” Israelis can now have that, or at least the chance of that, if they do certain things. Here is the opportunity.

Israel is going to have to live with losing settlements and the West Bank becoming Palestine. In an ideal world a small proportion would remain, deliberately working within and alongside Palestinian communities. Unfortunately what I’ve seen of the settlers, very few would want to do that. So swap settlers for a few Peaceniks that like growing olives and want to get on with their neighbours. See if they can live relatively peacefully together, just like they were doing 150 years ago.

It may seem like Israel is giving far more than the Palestinians in this list, but then they had far more to give in the first place.

Personally, I have always believed that all Israel ever really was to be left alone so that it could just get on with business. Unfortunately, how they have gone about this, especially over the past 50 years, is in a way that has caused continuous; harm, suffering and unfairness to the Palestinians.

Supporters who want a Palestinian state where Israel is today, simply aren’t going to get it. 9 Million Israelis aren’t going anywhere (apart from the settlers).

The reality is that Israel has got enough materiel to successfully defend the Gaza border and another incursion like Oct 7 can pretty easily be defended against. Alternatively a 3 mile buffer zone guarded by UN around Gaza.

“From the river to the sea”, should be claimed and chanted loudly by both Palestinians and Israelis. But with the additional line. “We’ll be living affably.”

That would be best for everyone but can both sides put their differences aside and try.

People are polarised on these threads, imagine actually living through this.

However, Northern Ireland has been through the process because the people working on a solution for all didn't give up. It might feel impossible but it could be done, if the hatred is out aside and the rest of the world helps rather than stokes the hatred.l

Hamas to remain in charge.
No.* *The Palestinians deserves free and fair elections, not a terrorist dictatorship. Hamas have not held elections for over a decade.

Open Gaza borders
Perhaps in the longer term as a statewide initiative, after a lot of baby steps. Right now, I don't think any Israeli politician will say to his voters "we are leaving Gaza, leaving Hamas in charge giving them back all those people we jailed for murder offences as well as the innocent - oh, and we are going to make it easier for them to cause another massacre by opening up the crossings."

Hamas has a crusading ideology like Isis state or the Taliban. Until they drop the requirement to eradicate the state of Israel, they will not be trusted. They don't care about living standards or the people they rule.

Right now, I want to see a ceasefire, food and medical aid and something approaching a new government in the PLO. Realistically, I think we need an outside neutral force as a buffer - IDF can't police Gaza and neither can Hamas. There has to be a third party to give everyone some breathing space.

It's going to take years for Gazans to recover from this war. And frankly, Netanhayu has to go before any kind of peace deal will be on the table.

You want to leave a terrorist organisation in charge of Gaza and also want Israel to open its borders????

Both parties must drop the hate.

Yeah good luck with that. I'm sure the terrorist group whose raison d'etre is killing Jews will be happy to stop that on your say so.

Realistically there is no way you'll have a Hamas government in Gaza and open borders existing at the same time.

Israel left Gaza in 2015. Hamas lied to the people of Gaza that they would get them peace bia peaceful means.

Locals were complaining re Hamas and their jobs for the family as well as money.

Billions had been thrown at Gaza and most of it went into the pockets of those at the top inside Gaza but mainly those outside it alond with millions spent on tunnels

At the moment, can you tell me why Egypt is not letting in people from Gaaza and where the billions went

Gaza could have been the new Beruit if the money was spent on the country and her people

IMO, Hmas must go, all leaders inside and outside Gaza taken out or locked up.
Israeli settlers to leave the west bank just like those that were forced out by the IDF from Gaza

The hostages must be released first, then Hamas downs arms, leaders locked up, Israeli settlers moved out of West Bank, then there could be peace roads.

"These people?"
"It's just what they do?"
"Ingrained into their culture and mindset?"

What people do you mean?

It may come as a surprise, but there are people on this site who live in the Middle East, and others with close ties to Israel and Palestine. Some people can't just "leave them [who?] to get on with it" - this is our life, our loved ones' lives.

On a wider, humanitarian note, people have been murdered, families torn apart, societies shaken and destroyed. A recent analysis found that more children have died in this conflict than in 4 years of other wars around the world. There are citizens of countries around the world, held hostage by Hamas and dying in Gaza. I don't think leaving "them" to get on with whatever your definition of "it" is, is likely to resolve any of these issues or stabilise an increasingly unstable region.

@ MuggedByReality said
"These people have been fighting over the same land & killing each other for religious & sectarian reasons for centuries. That is just what they do. It is deeply ingrained into their culture & mindset."

Whilst of course other people, such as Europeans have lived together, war free and in total harmony over the past 1500 years. That statement of yours is nonsense. "These people", have, actually lived relatively harmoniously for centuries. Jewish arab and muslim arab generally fought together against the crusaders and life for non-muslims under muslim rule whilst not perfect was, with a few exceptions, pretty good up until about 120 years ago.

"so we should just leave them to get on with it"
But we don't. The US and Soviets ( and more recently the Iranians) have seen the Middle east as an extension of their chess board and as such interfere in a way that suits their purposes, which are not the purposes of peace.

Israel left Gaza in 2015
They removed the boots on the ground. Instead, they controlled Gaza from the outside, down to the number of calories Palestinians were allowed on a daily basis.
Billions had been thrown at Gaza and most of it went into the pockets of those at the top inside Gaza but mainly those outside it along with millions spent on tunnels
Do you include in this the millions that Netanyahu gave Hamas?
At the moment, can you tell me why Egypt is not letting in people from Gaza?
Why should they? Do you thing the UK would take 2.5 millions refugees?
Gaza could have been the new Beruit if the money was spent on the country and her people
See my first point.
IMO, Hmas must go, all leaders inside and outside Gaza taken out or locked up. Israeli settlers to leave the west bank just like those that were forced out by the IDF from Gaza
I agree but I would add that Netanyahu and his government must also go.

Your post is verging on Islamophobia.

Not sure they just meant Muslims when they said "these people".

Maybe but the term "these people" speaks for itself.

They said "These people have been fighting over the same land & killing each other for religious & sectarian reasons for centuries" in the context of fighting between Palestines and Israelis. So yeah clearly not just talking about Muslims.

Whether they referred to Palestinians, Israelis, or both, whether they meant Muslims, Jews or both, it's offensive.

Both parties must drop the hate.

DUSTYDUSTYDUSTY replied with
"Yeah good luck with that. I'm sure the terrorist group whose raison d'etre is killing Jews will be happy to stop that on your say so."

Maybe if you took away the reason for hating Israeli Jews, the hate would stop.

Or perhaps you agree with (or are) the poster who wrote on another thread that Antisemitism is a founding aspect of Islam.

Take away anti-Semitism? How exactly?

Maybe if you took away the reason for hating Israeli Jews, the hate would stop.

In the eyes of many, that reason would be the dissolution of the state of Israel. Hence "From the river to the sea".

I don't know if there is hatred on either side, in a generalised sense. What there is is a struggle for control of a tiny bit of land, between 2 groups who both feel deeply connected. One group has been stronger for many years and looks set to win. But I think the antagonism is not so irrational or emotional as hatred. It's a battle for survival, as, I think, both sides feel it. I think the world should treat it that way too, and work to ensure both parties do survive and prosper, as nothing will change in this deadly battle unless the rest of the world steps in and supports them to resolution.

DustyDustyDusty wrote
"Take away anti-Semitism? How exactly?"

For Palestinians, by taking away the cause of it.
You're talking as if you believe that Palestinians hate the Israeli Jews just because they are Jewish. They hate them because they see them as an oppressive, colonialist force. Had Israel been formed and behaved in an identical way by druids, then the Palestinians of Gaza would have been Antidruidites and they simply wouldn't have given a toss about the Jews.

After ww1 leaving a hateful impoverished Germany to fester for a a couple of decades didn't end well peace wise.

The same consideration of basic human nature applies here. Palestinians will want revenge. If we look at Gaza I think you have to be fairly naive to think Palestinians are going to shake hands with Israel and a nice fluffy love in will come to be. If course some advocate Hamas should still be in charge so a peace seems doubly unlikely

No. Israel will have to have a strict security policy in force for years to come including enhanced border protection including possibly a better border wall and the right to enter Gaza to quell further attacks

No one wants to admit this because people would rather be optimistic and talk of a 2state solution but I think such talk is for a future generation

Hang on, are you blaming Jewish people for anti-Semitism? Hamas absolutely do hate Israeli Jewish people just because they're jewish, that's why the 7/10 attackers bragged about how many Jews the'd killed.

And you do know MN has a quote feature right?

Not sure what druids have to do with anything btw.

I read up a little on an interesting concept called Terror Management Theory the other day. It seems relevant to what you’ve written here when you say it’s a battle for survival. The theory suggests that when people fear for survival, they will be more likely to favour their in group (own culture/country/religion) and act in a prejudiced way towards out groups. The reason being that this helps to soothe some of their fear by giving their life purpose and meaning which will exist after death. Sharing in case you or anyone else finds it interesting. Apparently it’s well studied in terms of political conflict, and is sometimes utilised by leaders who may not have the most admirable aims. Basically fear of death can increase internal group cohesion at the expense of external group cohesion.

https://www.verywellmind.com/terror-management-theory-7693307

http://www.tpmap.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/20.4.2.pdf

Haven’t properly read the journal article yet.

@PeasfullPerson It's late, but the journal article looks interesting, so I may try to finish it tomorrow, if I can. One question I've seen asked, and pondered myself, is why the issue of Israel/Palestine has always been so polarising. This quote seems to explain it, to me. '(b) reminding people of death (mortality salience) increases positive reactions to those who support their worldview, negative reactions to those who threaten it.' I think, when people discuss the issues in that region it is always coloured by the threat of annihilation of one of the two parties. It seems to me that, logically, it is the Israeli side which has the power to do so, but in my many conversations with pro-Israelis there is a real sense of 'it's them or us,' obviously much greater since Oct 7th.

On another note, it's the 21st anniversary of Rachel Corrie's death. RIP, Rachel, Let's hope the world achieves the peace you represented through your own non violent struggle.