Murdered vs died.

Eyesopenwideawake · 2023-12-20T22:14:11+00:00

Watching the BBC news tonight and they quoted "1200 people were murdered on the 7th October". In the same report they said that 20,000 people in Gaza had died since Israel started their campaign. Language is so emotive. How would you think about the conflict if you were told/read that 20,000 Gazans had been murdered?

BigandBeefy · 20/12/2023 22:50

I saw an interesting post on this a while back on Instagram. It was about the different language used to describe Palestinians vs Israelis on the 3 main news channels in the US. I wish I could find it now.

The BBC should at least say killed. They didn't die they were killed. Died makes it sound like they are dropping dead rather than being bombed to death and executed in the streets.

Itsalmostherenow · 20/12/2023 23:35

I wonder why Palestinians say my child is martyred. Sounds off when they also say that of terrorists who die. I'd think it's different but they keep saying another child martyr.

Parkingt111 · 20/12/2023 23:49

@Itsalmostherenow the term martyr has different connotations in Islam and also in the culture there, than what we are used to over here. Anyone who is killed unjustly is a martyr. Like that there are also other causes of death where one would be considered a martyr for example If someone died through drowning.

webbydeb · 21/12/2023 00:05

In some cultures women that die during child birth or those that die because of natural disasters are also martyred @Parkingt111 as you have mentioned just to give a few more examples.

tescocreditcard · 21/12/2023 00:09

It wasn'tuntil someone on mumsnet pointed this out that I noticed it. Especially on the BBC. Different language used for different races.

I pay more attention to it now.

I've noticed also now that the BBC call Derry Londonderry now. Like they used to in The Troubles.

webbydeb · 21/12/2023 00:19

I think it was today someone tweeted about how 60 people that drowned recently were real people and children and not just migrants. The word migrant dehumanises these people and detaches the readers/viewers from them. The tweet was in response to BBC.

I think the BBC and a lot of western media outlets deliberately use these words to lessen the impact the viewers may feel and actually normalise what's going on by removing the human emotion of empathy.

Aetreides · 21/12/2023 01:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

auberginefortea · 21/12/2023 03:41

But there is a difference. When Hamas launched an attack, they set out to deliberately target and kill Jewish civilians. No doubt about it, the loss of life in Gaza is horrible, but the nature of airstrikes is that individual civilians are not being directly targeted. There is a military objective at play.

naughtynine · 21/12/2023 03:57

Aren’t most civilian casualties of war referred to as having died or being killed as opposed to being murdered? I don’t think I’ve ever seen the word murder when talking about the War on Terror innocent victims. Are the Bloody Sunday victims even referred to as murdered?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/911-civilian-casualties-iraq-afghanistan-b1912816.html

Forgotten victims of 9/11: The 363,000 civilians killed during the War on Terror

We may never know how many innocent people US forces killed during the War on Terror – and that’s intentional, writes Josh Marcus

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/911-civilian-casualties-iraq-afghanistan-b1912816.html

passiveaggressivenonsense · 21/12/2023 04:01

I read that Israël has murdered more civilians in Gaza since Oct 7th than have been murdered by Isis.

vestedinterests · 21/12/2023 04:06

but the nature of airstrikes is that individual civilians are not being directly targeted. There is a military objective at play.

You can't be serious

Dulra · 21/12/2023 07:22

webbydeb · 21/12/2023 00:19

I think it was today someone tweeted about how 60 people that drowned recently were real people and children and not just migrants. The word migrant dehumanises these people and detaches the readers/viewers from them. The tweet was in response to BBC.

I think the BBC and a lot of western media outlets deliberately use these words to lessen the impact the viewers may feel and actually normalise what's going on by removing the human emotion of empathy.

Absolutely not unique to this conflict. Language is so important and the media know exactly what they are doing with the different language they use.

I did see on the BBC news at 10 last extremely distressing footage from Gaza so I do think their reporting has been very good with good information.

I've noticed also now that the BBC call Derry Londonderry now. Like they used to in The Troubles. Is that because both are allowed and British government use Londonderry, Irish government use Derry so always Derry on Irish news

Baircasolly · 21/12/2023 07:27

To use the word "murdered" would be to accuse Israel of war crimes. It's not up to the BBC to make that call, or at least, not at this point.

Toothyfruity · 21/12/2023 08:01

naughtynine · 21/12/2023 03:57

Aren’t most civilian casualties of war referred to as having died or being killed as opposed to being murdered? I don’t think I’ve ever seen the word murder when talking about the War on Terror innocent victims. Are the Bloody Sunday victims even referred to as murdered?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/911-civilian-casualties-iraq-afghanistan-b1912816.html

One of the soldiers who murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday is finally going on trial so maybe they will finally be referred to as murders if he's convicted.

Desertrose2023 · 21/12/2023 08:07

I posted this in the journalists in Gaza thread but it’s more relevant here. Talks about exactly what you’ve highlighted OP re the use of the “passive voice” when it comes to describing what’s happening to Palestinians. Worth a quick watch.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1AIaslOG1r/?igsh=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1AIaslOG1r/?igsh=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

auberginefortea · 21/12/2023 08:27

Has anyone actually checked the BBC on this?

From this link, the BBC talks quite clearly about Palestinians killed.

backtowinter · 21/12/2023 08:59

vestedinterests · 21/12/2023 04:06

but the nature of airstrikes is that individual civilians are not being directly targeted. There is a military objective at play.

You can't be serious

She's absolutely right though The words have different meanings related to intent

Itsalmostherenow · 21/12/2023 09:23

Parkingt111 · 20/12/2023 23:49

@Itsalmostherenow the term martyr has different connotations in Islam and also in the culture there, than what we are used to over here. Anyone who is killed unjustly is a martyr. Like that there are also other causes of death where one would be considered a martyr for example If someone died through drowning.

Thanks for explanation 👍

LenaLamont · 21/12/2023 09:27

Hamas murdered people in a terrorist attack.
IDF killed (many more) people in a war.

We use different language to describe different circumstances and always have.

PeasfullPerson · 21/12/2023 09:45

I don’t understand why war is an excuse to do things to a civilian population that would never be acceptable in day to day life.

PeasfullPerson · 21/12/2023 09:47

Or maybe I should rephrase that to say that it would never be acceptable for civilians to do to eachother in day to day life.

braticus · 21/12/2023 09:58

So when an IDF sniper shoots two women inside church grounds for going to the toilet, were they killed or murdered?

Baircasolly · 21/12/2023 10:05

braticus · 21/12/2023 09:58

So when an IDF sniper shoots two women inside church grounds for going to the toilet, were they killed or murdered?

But that's a decision for an international court, following a rigorous trial.

braticus · 21/12/2023 10:05

x.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1737619949101989906?s=46

"According to the UN Human Rights Office (OHCHR), 11 men were shot in front of their family members on Tuesday and "the IDF then allegedly ordered the women and children into a room, and either shot at them or threw a grenade into the room""

Were these people killed or murdered?

Dulra · 21/12/2023 10:11

braticus · 21/12/2023 09:58

So when an IDF sniper shoots two women inside church grounds for going to the toilet, were they killed or murdered?

In my view killing unarmed civilians that are not a threat is murder and often soldiers are tried for murder long after conflicts, once events and evidence is collated but it is very difficult.

As someone pointed out already a British soldier was charged with murder for bloody Sunday but it was a very contentious emotive trial, with dailymail in particular and their readers, being incensed about it.

In the case of Northern Ireland it is still an issue and shows how people matter, who is in charge matters. For instance in the news today is the The Northern Ireland Troubles legacy bill which was introduced by the Tory government in September: The act became UK law in September 2023. It looks to end legal proceedings relating to the Troubles by granting immunity to people who cooperate with the new Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery (ICRIR).
The Irish government have launched a legal challenge against it. Justice from conflicts is extremely difficult

https://news.sky.com/story/irish-government-launches-legal-challenge-against-uks-controversial-northern-ireland-legacy-bill-13034806

Irish government launches legal challenge against UK's Northern Ireland Legacy Bill

The legal action relates to the Northern Ireland Troubles Legacy Act, which was introduced by the UK in September this year. The path for amnesties to be provided could be in breach of international law.

https://news.sky.com/story/irish-government-launches-legal-challenge-against-uks-controversial-northern-ireland-legacy-bill-13034806