What should Israel have done?

[WibbleWobbleFlop]

The entire situation between Israel and Palestine is horrendous. Hamas and the IDF are both terrorists organisations, there is no disputing that. Palestine is experiencing a genocide, there is no disputing that. Hamas wants Israel and all Jews worldwide to experience a genocide, there is no disputing that.

From a non-Zionist Jewish person with no ties to Israel, I am struggling to see how Israel should have responded to the October 7 massacre. I don't see how this war could have been avoided. In order to defend Israel and all Jewish people against genocide, Hamas needed to be taken down. But with Hamas hiding amongst civilians, Israel could not take down Hamas without civilian casualties. Hamas will not stop using human shields and continues to attack Israel with the promise of further massacres like that of October 7.

I see constant calls for ceasefire and calling on Israel specifically to stop. For the sake of innocent Palestinians, I want this. But how can Israel do this without endangering their own innocent population?

I would like to hear what posters believe should have been done, and what could be done now to end the war and have peace.

I have no idea what else Israel could do. With Hamas there will be no Israel. But more importantly I would like to point out the IDF are not terrorists. Utter nonsense.

The IDF have been complicit in so many war crimes at this stage, that they are inciting terror and murdering thousands of civilians. For all intents and purposes, they are acting as terrorists. Netanyahu is to blame, not the people of Israel (many of whom had no choice but to join the Israeli army).

There are a number of articles written by experts that reiterate that it is not possible to destroy a terrorist group of this type with military might over a short period of time as it is an ideology. The suggestions are targeted counter-terrorism, alongside political strategies to try to drive a wedge between Hamas and the population (which is unlikely to happen while they are bombing them). They also point out that Israel has had previous success in taking out the top leadership of Hamas through targeted assassinations which has weakened the organisation in the past. Another important area is cutting of the flow of finance to Hamas - this might involve the US and other Western countries increasing sanctions of Iran. No-one is saying this will be easy or quick, but it has to be more effective as well as more humane than a catastrophic bombing campaign with no medium of long term plan which will result in a brutalised and radicalised population.

sacking Netanyahu would be a good start

Thank you. I don't see how the targeted assassinations were successes though, as October 7 still happened.

@WibbleWobbleFlop I think it's pretty clear Israel has taken it's eye off the ball for quite a while in terms of the threat from Hamas. As far as I'm aware the last targeted assassinations were some years ago.

@gloriagloria Admittedly I know very little about Israel's national security, so I'll trust you on that. I appreciate your knowledge!

I think that Israel needed to assess the demands of Hamas and the Palestinians they represent.

Wiping out Israel and Jews = not ok

Gaining right to return and self- determination = ok

At the heart of Zionism and Israeli ideology is both the right to return after 2000 years to their homeland and the right to a sovereign state. So they must also apply this to the Palestinians.

Israel also facilitated Hamas to thrive in an effort to weaken more legitimate leadership options in Palestine.

You can't allow a group to grow for years and then decide to destroy them overnight by razing a densely populated enclave of over 2million people to the ground.

To be honest I think the main goal is to destroy Gaza rather than Hamas.

What the current Israeli government have never understood (or cared about) is that the worse they treat Palestine, the more recruits they hand Hamas. Israel is literally creating more Hamas soldiers every day. That’s why Hamas did this.

The sympathy of the world was
with Israel immediately after Oct 7. They should have sought an international / UN consensus on the way forward, which would either be a one state solution with Israel taking responsibility for security in all the areas, or a two state solution with the Palestinian areas run by a Saudi-Egypt council (as was being negotiated before 7 Oct). They should have asked for international peacekeepers along the border like happened in Kosovo and Iraq. And Israel should have withdrawn from all of its illegal settlements and arrested the Israelis who commit crimes, including not just the murders committed by IDF soliders but also the crimes like the settlers bulldozing Palestinian villages and schools and threatening to shoot any Palestinian farmer who harvests his own olive crop.

Hindsight eh. What a luxury it is.
I think the Israeli military and administration have kind of shot themselves in the foot with their response. They were goaded by Hamas and bit. Long term it will damage their reputation internationally (if the Genocide convention is invoked they will be internationally rebuked by the world court and support from the US will fade). There is now a very strong narrative that Israel (as a country) lie. Their own citizens are less safe and this has also decreased the safety of Jews around the world.

The best 'going back' response I read was on Reddit. Israel, on October 8th go to the international community and say taking out Hamas is non-negotiable to us now after yesterday- would anyone like to plan our response with us. We are willing for the international community to take control of this operation/do it themselves/try their way, we're open to it. If you fail we will revert to our plan and lethally remove Hamas with force from Gaza which means we displace 2.2 million and there will be significant collateral damage in terms of civilian deaths.

A safer way to take out Hamas may have appeared via international effort. If not Israel could then have stated 'We came to you & asked if anyone had a better idea and wanted to try it and no one did so we are taking control and defending ourselves'. Who could call for a ceasefire then?

Currently Israel are saying 'We are the only democracy in the ME/we have been attacked/we have a right to defend ourselves/we are superior in intelligence and weaponry' and that combined with conducting a very shoddy propaganda campaign and the very visible and graphic 15k plus deaths filling our screen out of Gaza (as a result of military action)...it just makes Israel look like the aggressors. Even with hostages - usually the most emotive propaganda tool and biggest indicator of victimisation - they are garnering the least sympathy. They haven't done very well at all.

Unfortunately the right to return for Palestinians is not compatible with Israel continuing to be a Jewish state, which is non-negotiable for the Israelis.

The targeted assassination would have to be done in conjunction with some kind of peace seeking agreements. If you take out the leaders and continue to treat people like shit new people are just going to step up to the plate, it's a pointless exercise. For this to end once and for all both sides have to accept some responsibility in this, there has to be some form of compromise, the Hamas charter states that they will accept the 1967 borders, Netanyahu won't. Expecting people to sit back quietly while their land is eroded and their rights are stifled was never going to work.

But how can peace-seeking agreements take place when Hamas will not come out of hiding? Netanyahu didn't agree to the 1967 borders, but even if he is removed there is no way to put that back on the table.

How did they negotiate the hostages being released? Can the same groups can negotiate this?

@user65977 Point taken.

I was just going to say this. They don't have to literally sit around a table, these things can be done via a third party. I'm not sure why you are adamant that there is no way to put it back on the table?

@OuiOuiKitty I'm not adamant, just skeptical. I worry for my own sake as well that negotiating with a group like Hamas (who wants me and my entire family dead simply for being born) would result in a hefty stab in the back.

All of this is to answer: How could Israel have made itself look better in the eyes of the world?

Israel’s governments should have worried less about looking better and more about BEING better (as they keep saying they are). They should not have supported and encouraged violent settlers. Or made life so miserable for the functionally imprisoned Gazans. Or encouraged Hamas in Gaza so as to split Gaza from its leadership in the West Bank Fundamentalist political Zionists should Or called the West Bank Judea and Samaria and made noises about creating a Greater Israel from the Euphrates to the Nile. Or been so right wing, racist, extremist and and violent.

But I agree that if it genuinely wanted to defend itself after Oct 7th it should have asked for international support on how to bring the perpetrators to justice and achieve long term stability (including suggestions on how to spend the billions of dollars of military aid it receives from the US) instead of simply killing thousands and thousands of innocent children and making things worse than ever.

Sorry if I sound blunt - your OP seems genuinely well-intentioned so I’m not aiming my ire at you.

*should not have called the West Bank “Judea and Samaria”

@Thereissomelight Your post didn't read as blunt! I agree that asking for international support would have been a better course of action. Oddly, I thought this is what the UN would naturally bring forth, but clearly my understanding of its function is incorrect.

Really interesting thread

People are just going to have to trust. Palestinians have just as much to fear by trusting Israel, Israel have stated clearly that they want them all dead and are actually in the process of enacting this by starving them all and removing all medical care. If people on both sides aren't willing to take that leap of faith it can never be resolved.

@OuiOuiKitty Do you think this is a likely solution? I don't say this sarcastically or goadily. You just seem to have good knowledge about the ongoings and I value your opinion.

Probably not. Netanyahu has made his aims clear. It looks like the likely scenario is an occupied Gaza, more of the West Bank taken by settlers and more misery and instability for both Palestinians and Israelis. That's if there is anyone left in Gaza, they are being pushed into the Egyptian border as we speak. I don't think this will end in lasting peace for anyone just more years of stored up pain and trauma which will eventually be released by more fighting and more death. Even if Hamas are gone so long as Israel occupy Palestinian land and suppress their rights some kind of 'resistance' will form and it is likely to be a violent one.

In my opinion the only way this will end is if the occupation ends and Gaza and the West Bank are allowed to flourish without fear or restriction. It would be a bumpy start for sure but I really think with international help to establish infrastructure and industry some kind of peace could eventually be found. Palestinians are just like us at the end of the day, wouldn't you just want to be left alone with your family, to be able to live and work without fear after all of this?