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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

OP posts:
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cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 14:42

“Psychological warfare” is not that though - it’s like in the case of the Bibas family where people were led to believe they were alive for weeks, and then they were traded to other terrorists, and then they were killed but Hamas blamed Israel, and now nobody knows if they’re alive or dead but Hamas broadcast footage of the father being told his wife and babies were killed. Or when Hamas contacted the mother of the clearly dead Shani Louk to tell her that her daughter was alive and well and had been taken to Gaza for medical treatment. Or when hostages were led to believe they were being taken to their executions and only realised they were being released when they saw the Red Cross vehicles, but still had to get past an angry jeering mob banging and climbing on their vehicles. It means that level of psychological torture.

If they were rounding up eg Muslim women and forcing them to take off their hijabs for no good reason, something like that would also count.

But this is not it. You will see images like this from Russia/Ukraine. This is the easiest & safest way for soldiers to check if they are carrying weapons. “Strip down to your underwear, come out, ok we accept your surrender.” It’s also the terrorists putting themselves in a position of vulnerability as a gesture of their surrender. It might be a bit embarrassing but it’s not carried out for the purposes of humiliation, it doesn’t hurt them and it’s not going to leave permanent psychological damage, which would be criminal.

The photo is of the surrender. It’s newsworthy. It is also very demoralising for Hamas and could end the war quicker. And if you’re offended you saw the image of the surrender, let me ask you this: if Israel had said “150 Hamas fighters surrendered to us today” with no image, would you believe them? I mean you’ve seen it and you STILL don’t believe it, but you accept at least SOMETHING happened.

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 14:47

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 14:42

“Psychological warfare” is not that though - it’s like in the case of the Bibas family where people were led to believe they were alive for weeks, and then they were traded to other terrorists, and then they were killed but Hamas blamed Israel, and now nobody knows if they’re alive or dead but Hamas broadcast footage of the father being told his wife and babies were killed. Or when Hamas contacted the mother of the clearly dead Shani Louk to tell her that her daughter was alive and well and had been taken to Gaza for medical treatment. Or when hostages were led to believe they were being taken to their executions and only realised they were being released when they saw the Red Cross vehicles, but still had to get past an angry jeering mob banging and climbing on their vehicles. It means that level of psychological torture.

If they were rounding up eg Muslim women and forcing them to take off their hijabs for no good reason, something like that would also count.

But this is not it. You will see images like this from Russia/Ukraine. This is the easiest & safest way for soldiers to check if they are carrying weapons. “Strip down to your underwear, come out, ok we accept your surrender.” It’s also the terrorists putting themselves in a position of vulnerability as a gesture of their surrender. It might be a bit embarrassing but it’s not carried out for the purposes of humiliation, it doesn’t hurt them and it’s not going to leave permanent psychological damage, which would be criminal.

The photo is of the surrender. It’s newsworthy. It is also very demoralising for Hamas and could end the war quicker. And if you’re offended you saw the image of the surrender, let me ask you this: if Israel had said “150 Hamas fighters surrendered to us today” with no image, would you believe them? I mean you’ve seen it and you STILL don’t believe it, but you accept at least SOMETHING happened.

It's clear psychological torture to pretend to semi-naked bound men that you are about to shoot them

Seems a bit strange to deny that

You seem to have some difficulty remaining focussed on the the topic being discussed - so I'll leave it there so as not to waste any more of my time

OuiOuiKitty · 08/12/2023 14:49

stomachameleon · 08/12/2023 14:32

I wasn't making excuses.
I agree with you.
I hold my head in my hands sometimes. Those extremist views are not shared by most people I know in Israel.
And to broadcast them? I don't understand.

You say you know people in Israel? Do you know why these politicians that say these things are not held to account for them if this is not the mainstream view? Where I live if a politician does his tax wrong he is ousted. If there was a sniff of a politician saying some of the outrageous things Israeli politicians have said they would be arrested for hate speech. I keep hearing most Israelis don't agree with this in regards to the dehumanising, genocidal rhetoric that politicians have been using and also in regards to settlers but I can't understand why if it is not seen as acceptable it is accepted?

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 14:55

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 14:28

Also I could be wrong but I don’t think the terrorists who were captured in Israel on October 7th count as POWs? I still don’t think their images should have been shown but it’s not a breach of international law.

The terrorists that surrendered definitely don’t count since their faces are hidden/obscured, they’re not identifiable.

I don’t think it’s much of a good faith attack anyway though because in the case of Israel it’s always “pics or it didn’t happen” and then they publish images and it’s like “you showed us pictures? How could you!”

My personal view is the IDF can’t win anyway so they should not bother publishing images, especially those of murdered Israelis who can’t consent and identifiable terrorists.

Well they obviously are identifiable as some of them have been identified as civilians by people who know them.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 14:58

@OuiOuiKitty it’s a bit like saying British civilians deserve an October 7th because Nigel Farage is a thing

OuiOuiKitty · 08/12/2023 15:10

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 14:58

@OuiOuiKitty it’s a bit like saying British civilians deserve an October 7th because Nigel Farage is a thing

Sorry? I didn't say anyone deserved anything. I think you read my post wrong. I was simply asking why if something is deemed unacceptable to so many of the population, why are people not held to account when they do things that are considered widely unacceptable. I've consistently said I believe in non violent measures to resolve the issues between Israel and Palestinians, I don't condone any massacres. I feel like you are trying to shut down my question for some reason by accusing me of saying something that I didn't.

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 15:43

eardefender · 08/12/2023 15:34

Show quote history

None of your links work

Fact No organs were 'harvested' at Alder Hey Hospital or any other hospital in the UK

They were histology specimens mainly from PMs which had either been retained for research purposes without parents consent or had been mislaid and not returned to the parents for burial

They definitely weren't 'harvested' for the purpose of transplantation which is the normal accepted meaning of the expression

.

eardefender · 08/12/2023 15:43

I just want to add that the men arrested will have been bound to protect the IDF soldiers and make it easier for fewer people to guard them and also they were stripped because of the use by Hamas of suicide vests. Not everything is because Israel is evil, some of it is just practical safety.

stomachameleon · 08/12/2023 15:43

@OuiOuiKitty family.

Where I live if a politician does his tax wrong he is ousted.
That's not an instantaneous thing though is it?
There are lots of things at play. Political system that relies on coalition governments, viable alternatives and quite Frankly its war.... it brings out the worst at times. If you read up about how Netanyahu came into power this time it might explain a few things.

Whether you like it or not Israel is in mourning. It has people missing and has been through an atrocity. It's only been two months.

It will happen (change) I imagine but not now. Things don't happen overnight. We are only privy to what is played out over the internet.

These are just my thoughts anyway.

Whatamidoinhere · 08/12/2023 15:44

@cauliflowerwaterfall It is psychological torture to capture civilians, strip them in the cold, blindfold them and have them kneel down in a desert basically all while taking pictures of them. In the other pictures of them rounded up in a truck, you can see marks on their bodies so they're likely being abused as well. I don't see why you're dismissing, and deflecting that then redirecting the conversation to other irrelevant points. Many of the actions committed by the IDF are war crimes and should be called out as that. Period.

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 15:46

The inability of some posters here to accept that the IDF is doing, or has done, anything wrong in the face of ample evidence of abuse, war crimes and even genocide, including photos and video footage, is really disturbing,

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 15:53

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 15:46

The inability of some posters here to accept that the IDF is doing, or has done, anything wrong in the face of ample evidence of abuse, war crimes and even genocide, including photos and video footage, is really disturbing,

This episode is patently a breach of Article 14 Geneva Convention and senior IDF officers are looking for the junior soldiers who posted it online

So even the IDF think this is wrong

OuiOuiKitty · 08/12/2023 15:57

stomachameleon · 08/12/2023 15:43

@OuiOuiKitty family.

Where I live if a politician does his tax wrong he is ousted.
That's not an instantaneous thing though is it?
There are lots of things at play. Political system that relies on coalition governments, viable alternatives and quite Frankly its war.... it brings out the worst at times. If you read up about how Netanyahu came into power this time it might explain a few things.

Whether you like it or not Israel is in mourning. It has people missing and has been through an atrocity. It's only been two months.

It will happen (change) I imagine but not now. Things don't happen overnight. We are only privy to what is played out over the internet.

These are just my thoughts anyway.

It kind of is instantaneous here tbh. They are forced to resign before they get pushed.

I understand what you are saying to a certain degree, I suppose Isreal is very different than the Western country I live in, considering my country doesn't go to war or have an army that does anything other than peacekeeping or handing out sandbags, it all just seems like a very 'foreign concept' for want of a better word that such strong rhetoric is seemingly going unchallenged. I suppose we all like to think the best of our own countries and wouldn't like to think that there is anything that would allow us to sit back and watch an attempted genocide happen in our name but if this has taught me one thing it's that all types of people can be darker than you would ever suspect.

stormy4319trevor · 08/12/2023 15:57

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 13:42

Thanks @cauliflowerwaterfall

Sounds like these men will be okay in that case

''No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.''

Geneva Convention

Yes, I was wondering about the rules regarding prisoners of war. Isn't the removal of clothes, photographing and kneeling for who knows how long, already a breach?

stormy4319trevor · 08/12/2023 16:05

@Efacsen You already addressed this, don't worry.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 16:29

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 14:58

@OuiOuiKitty it’s a bit like saying British civilians deserve an October 7th because Nigel Farage is a thing

Or that Palestinians deserve this because hamas was voted in 15 years ago

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 17:06

stormy4319trevor · 08/12/2023 15:57

Yes, I was wondering about the rules regarding prisoners of war. Isn't the removal of clothes, photographing and kneeling for who knows how long, already a breach?

Show quote history

No it’s not

paladium · 08/12/2023 17:32

According to this, they must be permitted to retain their clothing.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciii-1949/article-27/commentary/2020

[9] According to Article 18, prisoners of war must be permitted to retain their clothing and other items such as helmets and gas masks. Prisoners of war have not always been permitted to keep their boots after capture, with some Detaining Powers citing security reasons for this. If prisoners of war are not allowed to keep their own boots or uniforms, or if their own uniforms are inadequate, they must be provided, as soon as practically possible, with sufficient and climate-appropriate clothing and footwear.[10] Even in the absence of uniforms, the provisions on badges and insignia still hold. Moreover, even if the prisoners may keep their uniforms and boots, these must be supplemented or replaced as necessary and appropriate, pursuant to Article 27.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciii-1949/article-27/commentary/2020#10

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 17:36

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 17:06

No it’s not

Show quote history

Maybe familiarise yourself with the law of armed conflict before you go making false assertions about it 👍

Jupitersstorm · 08/12/2023 17:39

paladium · 08/12/2023 17:32

According to this, they must be permitted to retain their clothing.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciii-1949/article-27/commentary/2020

[9] According to Article 18, prisoners of war must be permitted to retain their clothing and other items such as helmets and gas masks. Prisoners of war have not always been permitted to keep their boots after capture, with some Detaining Powers citing security reasons for this. If prisoners of war are not allowed to keep their own boots or uniforms, or if their own uniforms are inadequate, they must be provided, as soon as practically possible, with sufficient and climate-appropriate clothing and footwear.[10] Even in the absence of uniforms, the provisions on badges and insignia still hold. Moreover, even if the prisoners may keep their uniforms and boots, these must be supplemented or replaced as necessary and appropriate, pursuant to Article 27.

Yes, that's so.

Parker231 · 08/12/2023 17:44

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 15:53

This episode is patently a breach of Article 14 Geneva Convention and senior IDF officers are looking for the junior soldiers who posted it online

So even the IDF think this is wrong

Show quote history

Unfortunately Israel has historically refused to sign the Rome Convention to join the ICC, and has used its influence—and that of the United States—to prevent or delay any serious consideration of the claims and charges against it. Israel’s standard effort has been to use procedural tactics to avoid any discussion on the substance of Palestinian claims, and to deny that the court has any jurisdiction to try the state of Israel or its citizens. Can’t see anything changing now.

feralunderclass · 08/12/2023 17:50

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 13:51

Yes they have all the legal rights of prisoners of war

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this 💔

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 17:51

@Parker231 but Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention even if not to the Convention of Rome

stormy4319trevor · 08/12/2023 17:51

I'm confused. What are we calling the civilians in this photo, and do arrested civilians have rights too? I can't understand the treatment of people who have not been found guilty of anything and are later released.