How do you successfully and humanely fight an insurgency?

[CampsieGlamper]

As applicable to countless other conflicts from any group of people in conflict with a standing army, people - insurgents/guerillas/franc-tireurs who can pick up a gun, fire and kill combatants and throw said gun down and become "innocent civilians"?
How can a standing army ensure a building which contains civilians and enemy combatants (willing to die for a cause) be sanitised with as few civilian casualties as possible, with maximum neutralisation of enemy personnel whilst keeping their own forces as safe and alive (as well as not mentally scarred)?

You can't.

If there is a way, nobody has discovered it.

You can and it was done in Northern Ireland.

Talking, listening, compromise, consensus. Healing, grieving, allowing people to speak freely.
You don't give up, ever.

what is the point of this post? Is it to justify the indiscriminate murder of thousands of babies and children?
Hamas are evil murderous terrorists but the current actions in gaza are equally inexcusable and won’t bring about peace. There must be a better way.

I think thats the point of OP’s post, whats the better way?

It would be different if Hamas wanted a 2 state solution then there would be something to talk about. But no they have clearly said they will continue to attack.

No fucking clue OP, wish I knew. The destruction and loss of life has been awful.

It’s a very big question. There are many international laws that should be followed like the types of weapons used in densely populated areas.
here’s an overview https://www.icrc.org/en/rules-of-war

I think start by not taking the "pick up a gun and fire" incident in isolation, but look at the decades of illegal occupation, apartheid, indiscriminate murder, imprisonment, land grab and town bulldozing at will, inhuman control and oppression of a civilian population into account to understand why it may push people to (wrongfully) pick up arms and fight for (rightful) freedom in the first place.

I agree with you Noicant. However, to me the OP’s question came across as insincere, basically justifying the actions against the civilians in Gaza.

How can a standing army ensure a building which contains civilians...

By that army not being an oppressive and immoral army in the first place that has destroyed a land and dehumanised a people for decades?

So your solution here is the same as Hamas' goal: that Israel shouldn't exist? That what Israel should be doing in response to terror attacks from Hamas is not to defend itself in ways that are in adherence to the laws of war (as OP wishes to discuss), but to what? Fold down on itself and collapse as a state?

You change the conditions and make the insurgents redundant.

Most reasonable people would want this as an alternative to the current horrific situation, but both sides have to engage for this approach to work.

What factors in NI enabled the warring factions to put down their weapons and talk / listen to one another?

Never said that. Maybe there is a better way than oppressing a population. Instead of jumping to extreme conclusions, maybe try to understand the dehumanising conditions that an occupying force has subjugated people to.

Ah I read it as frustration that people keep saying it’s terrible but offering no alternative to how Israel can protect itself.

It’s a horrible mess either way, I sincerely hope and wish that this puts a fire under everyone to come up with a 2 state solution. This can’t keep happening.

To begin with OP, the countries involved need to follow the rules of war. They are there for a reason. You don’t need to create a new way of minimising civilian deaths. Your thread is pointless. Maybe your thread should be entitled: why won’t Israel follow the rules of war and what should be done about it?
There are rules written:international humanitarian law. You find though, Israel which considers itself as a democracy, doesn’t follow any of the rules: proportionality is a big one. How many Palestine civilians are being killed for 1 Hamas target? Don’t kill those who are not fighting: doctors, civilians, children, women, premature babies!!! Media, press. Israel is killing them all.

Thats a bit of a “wellll I wouldn’t start from here” point.

what’s happened has happened, they are where they are, how do you get from here to a place of safety and security for everyone that lives there.

How do you successfully and humanely fight an insurgency?
Diplomacy. No fighting can be considered humane.

How can a standing army ensure a building which contains civilians and enemy combatants (willing to die for a cause) be sanitised with as few civilian casualties as possible, with maximum neutralisation of enemy personnel whilst keeping their own forces as safe and alive (as well as not mentally scarred)?
You decide not to attack, you invite the leaders out and you engage in good faith diplomacy. At the very least, you follow the ICC laws which say you do not attack the building, you keep your troops out of firing range and wait for their combatants to attack you outside the building. You taunt them and you dangle bait to lure them out. But you don’t attack a building with civilians in it unless you cannot get yourself out of harms way by withdrawing to a safe distance.

I am sure I will be called incredibly naive, but it’s the opposite. This is where all wars end anyway. They all end with leaders sitting down and agreeing on terms. Why not skip all the fighting and go right to the talking? Why is that so hard for the (usually male) leaders to just comprehend and do?

Basically this:
The British government’s acceptance of the right to self-determination, subject to concurrent consent, its renunciation of any selfish strategic or economic interest, its commitment ‘to encourage, enable and facilitate’ the achievement of agreement between the people of Ireland and its promise to accept the admission of Sinn Féin to political dialogue with the other parties, and not just in a nationalist forum, challenged the whole rationale of continuing the armed struggle.
The IRA were given their voice back, they were listened to and given rights to political platform. The playing field was levelled.

Israel need to give Palestinians plenty of land, space, freedom to farm and trade, give them autonomy and dignity and stop acting like they own them. Why do the Israeli's think they have the right to steal land, imprison, torture, control and humiliate their neighbours?

Yes, accepting the insurgents or enemy or invaders as equal human beings worthy of good faith negotiation is an essential ingredient. Also valuing the lives of children is a good start too.

I understand that, but OP framed her question very insincerely. Her question came across as a justification for Israels attacks against Palestine and the massive death toll, without actually framing it in a context that considered both sides position and the contributary variables.

Thank you @RubyRubyRubyRubay

Good in theory, but in practice, feelings on both sides are strong and there’s no trust. How can trust be rebuilt? I am afraid that it might not be possible, or at least it will be a slow process, and need to be supported by the international community.

Discussions and compromise on both sides. Hamas doesn’t want Israel to exist because it feels that the land should be Palestinian. Obviously that isn’t a reasonable aim, but Israel has forced Palestine into two tiny separate pieces of land, one of which is essentially a prison and the other of which is constantly being shrunk and taken over by Israeli settlers. If Israel would consider discussions around drawing new borders and ensuring a reasonable amount of the land belongs to Palestine, enough that people aren’t living in cramped conditions and where they are not living with the threat of an Israeli settler taking the land from under them, surely that would be a start. Hamas would surely have far less recruits if ordinary civilians weren’t living under occupation and under constant threat, poverty and torturous conditions from Israel and were able to make a living and live freely within their own borders and obviously less people joining terrorist groups would enable more Israelis to live freely and safely as well.

Is this to justify the rape and murder of over a thousand people and hundreds taken in hostage?

I agree @Tatumm I can't even imagine the injustice, grief and rage felt by people who have lost family and friends during horrific conflict like this. Sometimes, the rage only subsides if you have a promise of no more death and pain.

America should have offered sympathy and encouraged great restraint. Instead they inflamed the situation. To inflame a sensitive and volatile situation should be an international criminal offence in the 21st century.

America was built on genocide though so they really don't have claim to any moral high ground ever. They are bullies and they support bullies. Biden has been a huge disappointment.

I dont think anything justifies murder. But to understand, move on, and ensure it is not repeated again, relies on an honest look at how wider conditions contribute to it. For example, how was south African apartheid created and maintained? How did ordinary civilians turn a blind eye to the holocaust? How did manufactured news contribute to the Iraq war? Only with sitting down and confronting our past can we find solutions and prevent repeat.

Ireland is the one that comes to mind - e had to live in terror at times from the IRA - they even bombed poor Norman Tebbit's wife on English soil who was then in a wheel chair. I think about 45k people were injured in total and now it is relatively calm but not entirely peaceful.

Israel is an integrated democratic society. About 21% of its population are arab.