"Resembles something more approaching revenge"

[Dulra]

The Irish Taoiseach (Prime minister) Leo Varadkar came out with this statement yesterday evening. Full statement - what is happening in Gaza is not just self defence on the part of Israel, but it "resembles something more approaching revenge" Is he right? I believe he is.

Irish politicians on all sides have not held back in their views about the conflict and their ongoing concern about the innocent Palestinian people, we are not viewed by Israel as allies or friends. Many view us as being on the wrong side and terrorist sympathisers or is just that we have a deeper understanding about the plight of Palestinians when a stronger neighbour can exert control over your lives

I'm only surprised that it's taken so long for someone to say this publicly.

But yes, it's both. Self defence and revenge.

Well done to the Irish for speaking out, personally I see it as opportunistic ethnic cleansing.

I remember my feelings after 9/11 - I wanted revenge. I also knew that it would be impossible to really extract it on the appropriate people, some of whom were either dead or happy to die, and all of whom were embedded and scattered among a lot of innocent people.

But, our attackers were dead and they hadn't just retreated to their base from which they could continue to attack. So, the situations aren't the same. I just empathise with the desire for revenge.

It's natural to feel that way and I don't think that many people would feel differently in their shoes. In this case, we're talking about people with generations of trauma and who are understandably extremely defensive. I don't think we can just tell them how they ought to feel and expect them to agree. And when we get frustrated and start yelling at them, they just get more defensive.

If they were genuinely trying to root out militant targets that are dispersed through the civilian population, how would that look different to what they are doing now?

Interestingly a lot of people say that they don’t condone Hamas actions, but that they are understandable because of the years of conflict/oppression. Would those people apply the same understanding to the question of Israeli ‘revenge’?

We all understand the emotion of revenge and we can understand why Israel and Isreali people wanted revenge but killing thousands of innocent people is not the answer. The leaders of any nation should be able to work through the natural instinct for revenge and respond in a rational proportionate manner. If your leaders are incapable of doing that and act solely on emotion where would we be?

This was the take of the son of an Hamas leader who has rejected the cause and fled to the US. Hamas torture and murder their own people to silence any criticism. They then slaughter a lot of people still suffering trauma from the Holocaust, deliberately unleashing Hell on their own people.

Interestingly a lot of people say that they don’t condone Hamas actions, but that they are understandable because of the years of conflict/oppression. Would those people apply the same understanding to the question of Israeli ‘revenge’?

I don't condone Hamas in any shape or form and do not agree that their actions can be excused in any way. It is excusable IMO

People speak of trauma and their is generational trauma on both sides but trauma most often manifests as self destruction - mental health, issues, addiction and so on. This is the experience in Northern Ireland. Hamas who are behind the attacks and masterminded them are not likely to have experienced trauma like everyday Palestinians directly

The men fighting for Hamas now were the boys who lost their families when Operation Cast Lead and its ilk happened. The idea that they are just nihilistic terrorists working at the beck and call of rich Qatari nationals is the dumbest take.

And also probably why Israel thinks they can “end” Hamas by simply making their reason to exist ironclad.

Good luck to them, I say. Let’s see how well fighting terror by minting brand new grievances amongst today’s children will go. Worked out great the last seven decades.

I just don't understand this. All respect to Jewish people who are suffering from the trauma from holocaust, i have read a lot about it, cried a lot about it when reading their accounts. Bur i dont understand the different standards applied - we are asked to understand and appreciate the trauma of something that happened more than a generation back and we do but how fair is it to use that to minimise what is happening to people right now?

People ask to sympathise with israeli mothers hiding with their children in the bomb shelters trying to protect them from rocket fire from Hamad. How do I do that when hundreds, thousands of state of art bombs are being dropped with latest technology aircraft on mothers with children who have nowhere to go to escape from those bombs? How do i do that when i see small children taking care of their even smaller siblings because both their parents have died? How do i do that when i see parents carrying dead bodies of their little children covered in soot and ashes feom the blast?

I just cant.

The men fighting for Hamas now were the boys who lost their families when Operation Cast Lead and its ilk happened.

Absolutely the men flighting for Hamas but I guess I was talking about the masterminds behind it. I also agree that the current Israeli actions will cause future recruitment for Hamas. Likewise Hamas actions have further entrenched and increased Israeli hatred of Palestinians, particularly among those Israelis who have been sympathetic to their cause in the past. On and on we go round and round getting no where just prolonging the destruction and death.

There's nothing like seeing women, children and babies massacred to make people vengeful. My grandfather told my dad about captured German SS troops he'd seen summarily shot after his unit has seen Belsen. Likewise Gaza women and children blown up by the IDF and massacred by settlers.

What is a rational proportional manner? What would be a proportional response?
Israel is still being bombed as well
Was there any diplomatic effort from the West to sit the sides at the table and talk? They all make pompous declarations from the comfort of their nice offices. What about the hostages? Our thoughts and prayers don't help them at all, nor their families.
The Irish Taoiseach says what he thinks will make him more popular at the moment. Like many others in politics

I'm just repeating what he said, as someone who'd actually been inside Hamas. I think his argument is something like people who have suffered generations of trauma, most recently the Holocaust, were unlikely to respond to a pogrom like that in any other way than unleashing Hell on Gaza. As a Palestinian himself, he feels the suffering of his people more than we do, but entirely blames his father and the other Hamas leadership. Hamas are Jew-haters, obsessed with exterminating the Jews in Israel, and everywhere else. This isn't just another anti-colonial movement that could be solved by negotiation, as sympathisers in the West seem to think. The fanatical ideology of Hamas is to blame for the violence in the region, and the impossibility of finding a peaceful co-existence.

This isn't my opinion (I don't know a huge amount about the conflict). This is what the son of an Hamas leader says. We need to get rid of Hamas for the sake of the Palestinians, as well as the Israelis, but how? Nobody seems able to answer that question.

It’s not self defence, the Gaza military action has put Jews everywhere at risk.

I don’t know what a proportionate response would look like but not this.

I agree OP. I'm Jewish and this disgusts and angers me. Netanyahu's aim is to rain destruction on innocent Palestinians so he can say 'This is your fault for voting for Hamas, they made us do it'. It's just keeping the cycle of hatred going again and again - when I see stories of Palestinian children who have lost their entire extended families due to this, it's another lost generation that you could understand if they would never want to reconcile with Israel and are more likely to grow up wishing to destroy it.

It makes Israel more dangerous, it makes the world less safe for Jews and most importantly it is causing untold suffering for Palestinians. Of course what Hamas did on 7 October was a travesty but Israel's government seems set on putting that in the shade.

Well killing over 8000 innocent civilians clearly isn't proportionate. Israel did not want diplomacy they wanted the West to support their actions in Gaza unconditionally which many countries are doing. Those that are calling for a Humanity ceasefire are being largely ignored. However, I do understand how difficult it is for Israel to negotiate with organisations like Hamas there is no hope of that happening but obliterating Palestine won't achieve anything either. I believe it's time to stop the bombardment and go back to using intelligence to hunt down and terminate Hamas leaders most of which are not in Palestine.

Years ago I read Robert Ardey's The Territorial Imperative and he mentioned that there had been a national survey in the US every year to measure the degree or strength of antisemitism. he said it went up during the 1930s when there was much news of Nazi pogroms and cruelty, and did not go down even when the camps were revealed at the end of the war. He suggested that people have little sympathy for victims. When the index did go down was after 1948 when Israel was founded, Arab villages destroyed, including the notorious Deir Yassin massacre when Irgun and Lehi fighters killed at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children. Ardrey theorised that Americans decided that Jews and Israelis were OK 'because they can be bastards like us'.

In war, a proportional response is met if:

1. There is a valid military target
2. The means is capable of achieving the target
3. There isn't an alternative with lower comparable costs.

I’m not sure it’s helpful to describe it as revenge. I think Herzog and Netanyahu have decided to get rid of Hamas and, as Hamas are hiding under civilian human shields, they sees no alternative except to destroy the human shields. I don’t think Israel is saying yay revenge, more this is the only idea they have. I watched Herzog’s press conference and to me he did not seem mentally stable.

Unfortunately, it’s difficult to think of a better way to persuade the next generation to hate Israel.

I don’t know how you solve terroism but I do not think this is it. Israel had the world’s sympathy after 7 October. Herzog and Netanyahu rushed in and did exactly what Hamas wanted them to do. Hamas have literally said they don’t care how many Palestinian civilians die. Perhaps that’s why they took hostages, so that Israel would be under pressure to react immediately instead of creating international consensus on how to deal with Hamas.

Hamas wanted the world to be shouting “Free Palestine!” and that’s exactly what they got 😐

After holding a press conference earlier today that featured former Supreme Court chief justice Aharon Barak, families of hostages held by Palestinian terrorists in Gaza gather in front of the gate of the Kirya military base in Tel Aviv, blocking a road.

The families announce they intend to stay at the entrance to the Kirya, which houses the IDF’s headquarters, until Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu publicly declares that “there is no ceasefire without the return of all the captives.”