Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

In one paragraph can you summarise the Israel / Hamas conflict?

143 replies

curmudgeonlydoesit · 31/10/2023 08:53

as if I was 12 please?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
PurpleChrayne · 01/11/2023 10:30

I think what people fail to realise is that it's not like for like. There is a tiny proportion of Jews in the world compared to Muslims, and throughout history we have been persecuted wherever we go. We have ONE country, which we were banished from thousands of years ago, which passed from empire to empire, and finally to the British. The day it was made into Israel (and Palestine), Arab armies from surrounding countries attacked it.

There are many, many Muslim-majority countries. Plenty of places who could take in Palestinian refugees from the subsequent generations of fighting. But none of them will.

I can't stress enough how Israel is our ONLY safe haven. Even in the midst of this war, I am applying for passports for the children so we can move there and escape the danger here in Europe. Do you understand that? We would rather step into a war zone that is a Jewish state than stay in the supposedly free-thinking liberal and peaceful England.

Louloulouenna · 01/11/2023 10:36

And as has been pointed out Jews have been driven out of countries countless times and just expected to move on without a backwards glance and start again. Even though there are no longer any countries even with significant Jewish populations they can go to.

Lampzade · 01/11/2023 10:38

JustMaggie · 31/10/2023 09:11

Jews suffered terribly at the hands of the Nazi's and they asked the British if it would be ok to have a homeland in Palestine. They wanted somewhere where they could be safe and never persecuted again. The British said "sure, no problem, you can have Palestine" so the Jews moved in. The Palestinians said "WTF?" and the Jews said "Sorry, it's ours now. Out."

This

notsoready4school · 01/11/2023 10:38

Louloulouenna · 01/11/2023 10:36

And as has been pointed out Jews have been driven out of countries countless times and just expected to move on without a backwards glance and start again. Even though there are no longer any countries even with significant Jewish populations they can go to.

I guess that’s why you think it’s fair to do that to someone else, right?

notsoready4school · 01/11/2023 11:00

A lot of people want to make it very complicated but to be clear none of the people who are currently fighting are driven by the ‘history’ they are both acting from what just happened to them now.

The current conflict is really just about the oppression and bullying by Israel and their army to every day Palestinians. They take their land, they harass them, they don’t let them have water (take their water) take their farms and livelihood, bully them with weapons, imprison their children and breadwinners without cause, stop any means of work and earning. Jobless poor angry young oppressed people are ready for radicalisation. It is the only option Israel leaves on the table. Unfortunately for Israel it will happen again, just a question of when and how bad it will be next time. Also where it will come from.

If you fill a small room with flammable stuff and have fireworks displays near by, it is just a question of when it will ignite. This is what Israel has done, created the environment for an explosion and it exploded. They are doing the same again only this time in full view of the world thanks to the internet.

logicisall · 01/11/2023 11:01

@NotSuchASmugMarried "Muslims have the whole of the Middle East (except Israel) - and they're still not happy."

What does that have to do with Hamas/Israel conflict?

Louloulouenna · 01/11/2023 11:03

@notsoready4school where did I say it was fair? Simply an observation that something the Jews have suffered for millennia seems unthinkable for an other group. Although there are of course innumerable other evictions / displacements of people that have occurred and are still occurring today and don’t attract anywhere near the same attention.

notsoready4school · 01/11/2023 11:25

Your message appeared under a tirade of messages suggesting Muslims should just evacuate to another Muslim country so I might have read it in the wrong context. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

lavender2023 · 01/11/2023 11:53

I have a go-

The imperial powers—Britain and France—made all sorts of promises to different peoples, and then put their own interests first. Those promises to the Jews and the Arabs during World War I were typical. Afterward, similar promises were made to the Kurds, the Armenians, and others, none of which came to fruition. But the central narrative that Britain betrayed the Arab promise and backed the Jewish one is incomplete. In the 1930s, Britain turned against Zionism, and from 1937 to 1939 moved toward an Arab state with no Jewish one at all. It was an armed Jewish revolt, from 1945 to 1948 against imperial Britain, that delivered the state.

Israel exists thanks to this revolt, and to international law and cooperation, something leftists once believed in. The idea of a Jewish “homeland” was proposed in three declarations by Britain (signed by Balfour), France, and the United States, then promulgated in a July 1922 resolution by the League of Nations that created the British “mandates” over Palestine and Iraq that matched French “mandates” over Syria and Lebanon. In 1947, the United Nations devised the partition of the British mandate of Palestine into two states, Arab and Jewish.

. Most Israelis are descended from people who migrated to the Holy Land from 1881 to 1949. They were not completely new to the region. The Jewish people ruled Judean kingdoms and prayed in the Jerusalem Temple for a thousand years, then were ever present there in smaller numbers for the next 2,000 years. In other words, Jews are indigenous in the Holy Land, and if one believes in the return of exiled people to their homeland, then the return of the Jews is exactly that. Even those who deny this history or regard it as irrelevant to modern times must acknowledge that Israel is now the home and only home of 9 million Israelis who have lived there for four, five, six generations.

Israel currently has a large community of Ethiopian Jews, and about half of all Israelis—that is, about 5 million people—are Mizrahi, the descendants of Jews from Arab and Persian lands, people of the Middle East. They are neither “settlers” nor “colonialists” nor “white” Europeans at all but inhabitants of Baghdad and Cairo and Beirut for many centuries, even millennia, who were driven out after 1948. Only 30% of the population are ashkenazi and most of them are from the ex soviet union (not known for its tolerance of ethnic minorities).

A word about that year, 1948, the year of Israel’s War of Independence and the Palestinian Nakba (“Catastrophe”), which in decolonization discourse amounted to ethnic cleansing. There was indeed intense ethnic violence on both sides when Arab states invaded the territory and, together with Palestinian militias, tried to stop the creation of a Jewish state. They failed; what they ultimately stopped was the creation of a Palestinian state, as intended by the United Nations. The Arab side sought the killing or expulsion of the entire Jewish community—in precisely the murderous ways we saw on October 7. And in the areas the Arab side did capture, such as East Jerusalem, every Jew was expelled.

In this brutal war, Israelis did indeed drive some Palestinians from their homes; others fled the fighting; yet others stayed and are now Israeli Arabs who have the vote in the Israeli democracy. (Some 25 percent of today’s Israelis are Arabs and Druze.) About 700,000 Palestinians lost their homes. That is an enormous figure and a historic tragedy. Starting in 1948, some 900,000 Jews lost their homes in Islamic countries and most of them moved to Israel. These events are not directly comparable, and I don’t mean to propose a competition in tragedy or hierarchy of victimhood. But the past is a lot more complicated than the decolonizers would have you believe.

Out of this imbroglio, one state emerged, Israel, and one did not, Palestine. Its formation is long overdue. But the attacks by Israel's neighbours on the fledging state as well as terrorist attacks by PLO and later Hamas (Hamas is basically a death cult) has meant that the Israeli state has done many harsh and bad things in retaliation and also out of a sense of paranoia/self preservation. The nationalist far right government that currently rules israel is guilty of this

It is too difficult to summarize in one paragraph but in one post. These are snippets from an excellent piece in the Atlantic.

elephantblock · 01/11/2023 12:08

lavender2023 · 01/11/2023 11:53

I have a go-

The imperial powers—Britain and France—made all sorts of promises to different peoples, and then put their own interests first. Those promises to the Jews and the Arabs during World War I were typical. Afterward, similar promises were made to the Kurds, the Armenians, and others, none of which came to fruition. But the central narrative that Britain betrayed the Arab promise and backed the Jewish one is incomplete. In the 1930s, Britain turned against Zionism, and from 1937 to 1939 moved toward an Arab state with no Jewish one at all. It was an armed Jewish revolt, from 1945 to 1948 against imperial Britain, that delivered the state.

Israel exists thanks to this revolt, and to international law and cooperation, something leftists once believed in. The idea of a Jewish “homeland” was proposed in three declarations by Britain (signed by Balfour), France, and the United States, then promulgated in a July 1922 resolution by the League of Nations that created the British “mandates” over Palestine and Iraq that matched French “mandates” over Syria and Lebanon. In 1947, the United Nations devised the partition of the British mandate of Palestine into two states, Arab and Jewish.

. Most Israelis are descended from people who migrated to the Holy Land from 1881 to 1949. They were not completely new to the region. The Jewish people ruled Judean kingdoms and prayed in the Jerusalem Temple for a thousand years, then were ever present there in smaller numbers for the next 2,000 years. In other words, Jews are indigenous in the Holy Land, and if one believes in the return of exiled people to their homeland, then the return of the Jews is exactly that. Even those who deny this history or regard it as irrelevant to modern times must acknowledge that Israel is now the home and only home of 9 million Israelis who have lived there for four, five, six generations.

Israel currently has a large community of Ethiopian Jews, and about half of all Israelis—that is, about 5 million people—are Mizrahi, the descendants of Jews from Arab and Persian lands, people of the Middle East. They are neither “settlers” nor “colonialists” nor “white” Europeans at all but inhabitants of Baghdad and Cairo and Beirut for many centuries, even millennia, who were driven out after 1948. Only 30% of the population are ashkenazi and most of them are from the ex soviet union (not known for its tolerance of ethnic minorities).

A word about that year, 1948, the year of Israel’s War of Independence and the Palestinian Nakba (“Catastrophe”), which in decolonization discourse amounted to ethnic cleansing. There was indeed intense ethnic violence on both sides when Arab states invaded the territory and, together with Palestinian militias, tried to stop the creation of a Jewish state. They failed; what they ultimately stopped was the creation of a Palestinian state, as intended by the United Nations. The Arab side sought the killing or expulsion of the entire Jewish community—in precisely the murderous ways we saw on October 7. And in the areas the Arab side did capture, such as East Jerusalem, every Jew was expelled.

In this brutal war, Israelis did indeed drive some Palestinians from their homes; others fled the fighting; yet others stayed and are now Israeli Arabs who have the vote in the Israeli democracy. (Some 25 percent of today’s Israelis are Arabs and Druze.) About 700,000 Palestinians lost their homes. That is an enormous figure and a historic tragedy. Starting in 1948, some 900,000 Jews lost their homes in Islamic countries and most of them moved to Israel. These events are not directly comparable, and I don’t mean to propose a competition in tragedy or hierarchy of victimhood. But the past is a lot more complicated than the decolonizers would have you believe.

Out of this imbroglio, one state emerged, Israel, and one did not, Palestine. Its formation is long overdue. But the attacks by Israel's neighbours on the fledging state as well as terrorist attacks by PLO and later Hamas (Hamas is basically a death cult) has meant that the Israeli state has done many harsh and bad things in retaliation and also out of a sense of paranoia/self preservation. The nationalist far right government that currently rules israel is guilty of this

It is too difficult to summarize in one paragraph but in one post. These are snippets from an excellent piece in the Atlantic.

This isn't one paragraph

Teddleshon · 01/11/2023 12:08

@lavender2023 thank you for taking the time to set all this out.

Coughingdodger · 01/11/2023 12:14

sleepyscientist · 31/10/2023 21:31

Religion and culture mean two groups cannot live side by side. Sadly one group was targeted by hitler so it's now frowned upon to blame them when they have gone to far.

Perfect!

Coughingdodger · 01/11/2023 12:17

@lavender2023
Thank you, that’s helpful

WhatWouldHopperDo · 01/11/2023 12:18

elephantblock · 01/11/2023 08:21

I don't know why people can't read about this properly, or watch one of the many YouTube videos on the subject.

It's complicated, but not beyond the realms of comprehension for most people.

So lazy to ask people to summarise for you

The problem is you get to the point where you don't know what is and isn't accurate - as demonstrated by the differing views on this thread.

Having said that, this thread has also demonstrated that this isn't necessarily the place to get the information either!

I have resigned myself to never fully understanding the history and try not to enter into discussions about it as I don't feel equipped to have a clear opinion.

Aaron95 · 01/11/2023 12:23

JustMaggie · 31/10/2023 09:11

Jews suffered terribly at the hands of the Nazi's and they asked the British if it would be ok to have a homeland in Palestine. They wanted somewhere where they could be safe and never persecuted again. The British said "sure, no problem, you can have Palestine" so the Jews moved in. The Palestinians said "WTF?" and the Jews said "Sorry, it's ours now. Out."

That rather overlooks the 2,000 years of history that preceded it. This goes back to the Roman times.

Jeezypeepers · 01/11/2023 12:26

@PurpleChrayne that’s uncanny, I’ve just applied for my youngest’s passport today, my eldest already has one. I can’t believe we’re thinking of leaving the U.K., I’ve lived here all my life and my parents were born here…my children. But I worry it’s just not safe here for Jews anymore and I need to make sure we can get out if we have to. The absolute shite being spouted on this thread is such thinly veiled hatred as well…Jews have lived in Israel the WHOLE TIME. Thousands and thousands of years. We’re not bloody colonisers.

The Arabs were offered at state at the same time, proportionate numbers too (actually a slightly better deal for them). They refused and declared war, lost the war, lost the land. Cry me a river 😑. People saying oh but it’s only been a country since WW2. So have all the countries in that region! They were just bits of empires before. Is Jordan not a country either? That was the larger part of the British mandate and yet no one ever seems to have any issue with that being a country. Every single time the Arabs are offered a two state solution they refuse because they don’t believe Jews should have ANY land at all. They want us to still live as dhimmies with no vote and a (literal, women also had to wear two different coloured shoes to mark them as Jews) bell around our necks.

No one is saying that the Israeli government is behaving well NOW. But this endless rhetoric that Jews have no historical right to that land by people who couldn’t point out the Levant on a fucking map really rips ma knitting Hmm

YireosDodeAver · 01/11/2023 12:29

Aaron95 · 01/11/2023 12:23

That rather overlooks the 2,000 years of history that preceded it. This goes back to the Roman times.

I think it goes back to Abraham c 3000bce doesn't it?

Is there an etymological or cultural link between the word Palestine and the Philistines in the bible?

WhatWouldHopperDo · 01/11/2023 12:30

Just listening to Rory Stewart as recommended by @Yogaandchocolate - really useful.

SinnerBoy · 01/11/2023 12:35

auberginefortea

In reality, much of the land was sold by Arabs (admittedly absentee landlords) to Jewish immigrants

According to the CIA World Fact Book, circa 2002, it was 6% of the Palestinian lands.

SinnerBoy · 01/11/2023 12:38

about half of all Israelis—that is, about 5 million people—are Mizrahi, the descendants of Jews from Arab and Persian lands, people of the Middle East. They are neither “settlers” nor “colonialists...

There you go, you've kicked the arse out of your own argument. You've said that they came from other countries, but that they're not settlers, or colonialists!

Israel marks first-ever national day remembering Jewish exodus from Muslim lands

850,000 Jews were expelled, fled or left their homes in Arab lands around the time of Israel’s founding. For many, Sunday is a belated recognition of their collective trauma, to be reconciled in any future peace agreement with the Palestinians

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2014-11-30/ty-article/.premium/first-jewish-refugees-remembrance-day/0000017f-e7bb-dea7-adff-f7fb56ee0000

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 01/11/2023 12:42

As @YireosDodeAver says:
The strip of fertile land at the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea has been the most desirable bit of land in the region for so many thousands of years that the start of the conflict dates to myths and legends from before reliable histories were ever written. Throughout all recorded millenia the land has very rarely been able to exist as an independent nation for more than a few decades, it's generally part of a wider global empire. It is currently in dispute between the US dominated western hegemony and the middle eastern islamist hegemony. Neither side will ever give up - historically, no empire ever gave up its claim, the cease of any previous claim only came about with the decline and fall of the empire in question.

Is there an etymological or cultural link between the word Palestine and the Philistines in the bible? Maybe, maybe not. It is a subject of discussion. This article is a calm starting point.
https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/09/palestinians-ancient-philistines/

Teddleshon · 01/11/2023 12:42

I feel so ashamed that Jewish people no longer feel safe in Britain.

Hippyhippybake · 01/11/2023 12:44

@SinnerBoy are you seriously suggesting that all people who are kicked out of a country or indeed even choose to leave are automatically settlers / colonialists when they arrive in their new country?

CeciNestPasUnPipi · 01/11/2023 12:51

Complex, multifaceted, and ultimately insoluble if you're looking for a win-win; which is why it is so easy to split under the pressure of "right vs. wrong" and not only make one side 'right' and one side 'wrong' - but to presume that there are only two sides in the first place.

Coughingdodger · 01/11/2023 12:55

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 01/11/2023 12:42

As @YireosDodeAver says:
The strip of fertile land at the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea has been the most desirable bit of land in the region for so many thousands of years that the start of the conflict dates to myths and legends from before reliable histories were ever written. Throughout all recorded millenia the land has very rarely been able to exist as an independent nation for more than a few decades, it's generally part of a wider global empire. It is currently in dispute between the US dominated western hegemony and the middle eastern islamist hegemony. Neither side will ever give up - historically, no empire ever gave up its claim, the cease of any previous claim only came about with the decline and fall of the empire in question.

Is there an etymological or cultural link between the word Palestine and the Philistines in the bible? Maybe, maybe not. It is a subject of discussion. This article is a calm starting point.
https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/09/palestinians-ancient-philistines/

Amazing! Thank you.