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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

If Israel call off a ground incursion is this a victory for terrorism and a vindication for taking hostages.

173 replies

mids2019 · 21/10/2023 07:40

Israel now faces a huge dilemma and I believe Hamas has played the one card it had.

The release of hostages now means it is clear that Hamas is willing to release hostages and I presume the price will be a stall and eventual stand down of a ground incursion into Gaza.

Israel backed by the US and the UK have vowed to destroy Hamas and there is a huge army waiting on the border poised to go in. Biden has proclaimed 'we will win'.

How does Israel react now? Can it afford to somehow back away from a ground offensive and allow Hamas in some form to continue to govern the Palestinian people ?

I can't see any easy answer but I feel now Hamas really did know what they were doing taking hostages.

OP posts:
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thatone · 21/10/2023 08:03

Of course they need to call off the ground offensive and let aid, water, food and electricity through. Punishing innocent civilians for the actions of Hamas terrorists contravenes international law.

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 08:17

Hamas only control Gaza. They do not govern the West Bank. Just for clarification. If Israel call off a ground invasion it will be a victory for all on humanitarian grounds. That is if you agree that Palestinians are human and not animals.

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 08:20

Language used by the UK and USA is hugely inflammatory and divisive. This saga started way before October 7th. Way before Hamas were even created in order to divide and rule over the Palestinians. Not everything is about winners and losers. Anyone looking at this in those terms doesn’t truly understand what is going on and has fallen for all the propaganda that has been thrown out by the MSM during this shitshow.

Original poster
mids2019 · 21/10/2023 08:20

How can Israel pivot on this? Is there going to be an indefinite window for hostage negotiations followed by an agreement of some new security relationship?

Will it take internal pressure to remove Hamas from Gaza? Personally Ivan split on whether Hamas will continue to maintain support or whether people will en masse want a different government given their predicament.

OP posts:
Original poster
mids2019 · 21/10/2023 08:23

Has the US been too bellicose in its rhetoric? Possibly it is not to US advantage to have a protracted bloody ground war where it is a sponsor and the hostage releases (well publicised) will allow ladder down for the US by advocating for a hostage release window of indeterminate time to allow negotiations?

OP posts:
WrongSwanson · 21/10/2023 08:24

Sometimes the greatest show of strength is not a knee jerk retaliation.

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 08:27

There hasn’t been an election in the Gaza strip for several years. No prospect of one now for a very long time as they try to rebuild their homes, bakeries, schools and hospitals that have been flattened by the IDF. It’s not their short term priority. Then when things have stabilised and they are able to have a roof over their heads and get back to work. This will take years. More refugees camps and tents etc. buildings don’t just pop up. Likely, Israel will not let them work or will
make it much harder for them to work and get through the two crossings that allow them in and out of Gaza. God, I could go on. Innocent civilians of Gaza enslaved in an open jail really have no prospect of success in any shape or form and that suits Netanyahu just well.

EasternStandard · 21/10/2023 08:28

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 08:17

Hamas only control Gaza. They do not govern the West Bank. Just for clarification. If Israel call off a ground invasion it will be a victory for all on humanitarian grounds. That is if you agree that Palestinians are human and not animals.

Do you mean let Hamas stand?

And does this depend on release of all hostages, or even if that doesn’t happen

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 08:33

No, it’s a clarification. As I’ve written. Lots of people seem to think Hamas governs over the whole of Palestine. They don’t realise there are two entities and two areas.

upinaballoon · 21/10/2023 08:33

Why hasn't there been an election in the Gaza strip for several years?

Was Mr. Biden bellicose when he said very publicly that he advised Israel not to react in rage?

IClaudine · 21/10/2023 08:34

I think it would be a good thing all round if Israel don't go in on the ground. Israel has superior weaponry, but Hamas has other advantages. Think about what happened in Iraq, Afghanistan, even Vietnam. It will be carnage on both sides. If they can get the hostages back any other way, they should. It will save Israeli lives and Palestinian lives.

upinaballoon · 21/10/2023 08:36

The radio just said the crossing has opened, unless my ears have gone wrong.

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 08:36

israel has reacted. They’ve killed over 3000 people. Whilst the US has backed them at every point.

EasternStandard · 21/10/2023 08:38

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 08:36

israel has reacted. They’ve killed over 3000 people. Whilst the US has backed them at every point.

Do you think Hamas should now be left to continue?

Original poster
mids2019 · 21/10/2023 08:38

@upinaballoon

good point . I think the US have not made support unconditional and although publically backing Israel in is darkest hour there would have been concerns about the log term consequences of a ground invasion. The very public (and good news) story about the hostage releases now gives those that think a ground incursion problematic an allowance to argue that there should be an indefinite window for negotiations where there is no ground war.

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Wetandhorrible · 21/10/2023 08:40

So to those arguing against a ground offensive,which I obviously agree would hurt innocents as well Hamas supporters, how do Israel stop Hamas coming back in for another attack of rape, murder, and hostage taking? And please remember, Hamas' charter states wiping out Israel so don't think we can count on their good will or honest intentions for peaceful co existing?

IClaudine · 21/10/2023 08:40

upinaballoon · 21/10/2023 08:36

The radio just said the crossing has opened, unless my ears have gone wrong.

You're right, it has.

IClaudine · 21/10/2023 08:41

From the Guardian:

Aid trucks have entered the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing, a Palestinian border official has confirmed, while Egyptian television showed trucks entering the Gaza Strip.

The border crossing was finally due to open at 10am local time to allow desperately needed medicine, medical supplies and food supplies to enter.

Aid officials have told the Guardian’s world affairs editor, Julian Borger, that 20 trucks were being permitted to cross today carrying Egyptian government aid, as per the arrangement worked out by the US, Israel and Egypt.

Egyptian television footage shows trucks surrounded by onlookers crossing the border this morning

Original poster
mids2019 · 21/10/2023 08:42

@EasternStandard

what if you had a situation where Israel massively increased security along the border of Gaza and only allowed good in through the Rafah crossing (which may be Israel's right). The Gazans lot would be poor and internally they may eventually displace Hamas as they realise there is no hope with them? Terroism doesn't win.

OP posts:
IClaudine · 21/10/2023 08:46

Wetandhorrible · 21/10/2023 08:40

So to those arguing against a ground offensive,which I obviously agree would hurt innocents as well Hamas supporters, how do Israel stop Hamas coming back in for another attack of rape, murder, and hostage taking? And please remember, Hamas' charter states wiping out Israel so don't think we can count on their good will or honest intentions for peaceful co existing?

I wish I had an answer to that.

Is it really possible to wipe out Hamas, though? Raining death down on Palestinians is going to create more terrorists.

EasternStandard · 21/10/2023 08:48

mids2019 · 21/10/2023 08:42

@EasternStandard

what if you had a situation where Israel massively increased security along the border of Gaza and only allowed good in through the Rafah crossing (which may be Israel's right). The Gazans lot would be poor and internally they may eventually displace Hamas as they realise there is no hope with them? Terroism doesn't win.

Idk if Israel can feel 100% secure and given the atrocities and harm to citizens I can see why they don’t want any risk

Also 200 hostages are still being held, they can’t be just left

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 09:02

@EasternStandard i think Israel shouldn’t conveniently fuck up the Palestinians specifically in gaza which then creates an environment where organisations like Hamas can stand. That won’t happen and the status quo will remain. Meanwhile in the West Bank - where there is NO HAMAS settler violence against Palestinians taking their homes village by village and bulldozing through orchards lest they bear too much fruit etc etc will also continue until someone says enough is enough and gets the Palestinians and Israeli’s to sit down and resolve this. Then the peace negotiator will be assassinated and people like you will
continue harping on “but Hamas! But Hamas!” and the Israeli territory will increase until there is no more Palestine. 🤷🏻‍♀️

SisterMichaelsHabit · 21/10/2023 09:08

mids2019 · 21/10/2023 08:42

@EasternStandard

what if you had a situation where Israel massively increased security along the border of Gaza and only allowed good in through the Rafah crossing (which may be Israel's right). The Gazans lot would be poor and internally they may eventually displace Hamas as they realise there is no hope with them? Terroism doesn't win.

Yes taking away people's freedoms, hope and future and making their daily lives harder, hungrier and more miserable has never ever backfired horribly for the "authorities". Ever. I mean wasn't this the entire premise of The Hunger Games?
(spoiler: the authorities didn't win)

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 09:08

So pleased to hear the crossing has been opened. It was evident from Blinken’s visit that the neighbouring countries had all warned against a land offensive and there was a lot of diplomacy going on behind the scenes. Lots of heated discussions as the region didn’t want to get involved in a land offensive. Pleased to read that the hostages have been released and hope the rest can all be released and returned to their families.

EasternStandard · 21/10/2023 09:12

Chaiandkaafee · 21/10/2023 09:02

@EasternStandard i think Israel shouldn’t conveniently fuck up the Palestinians specifically in gaza which then creates an environment where organisations like Hamas can stand. That won’t happen and the status quo will remain. Meanwhile in the West Bank - where there is NO HAMAS settler violence against Palestinians taking their homes village by village and bulldozing through orchards lest they bear too much fruit etc etc will also continue until someone says enough is enough and gets the Palestinians and Israeli’s to sit down and resolve this. Then the peace negotiator will be assassinated and people like you will
continue harping on “but Hamas! But Hamas!” and the Israeli territory will increase until there is no more Palestine. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think ‘But Hamas’ is entirely expected given the atrocities people endured and that hostages are still enduring.

It’s easy to be flippant with that line, it’s minimising the horror they faced

Just noticed the ‘people like you’ and ‘harping’

Quite something. Yes I do think that horror was unconscionable, and would be for anyone not posting about ‘harping’ on mn