Perspective needed please.

[Nicae]

I'm genuinely after some perspective here so please bear with me.
I have two beautiful daughters and really do know how lucky I am. I married at 32 and they arrived 9 months and 25 months later and are the best thing that ever happened to me (sleepless nights and all!). However since having my girls some of my friends have behaved in a way I consider very strange. It began with one who couldn't conceive deciding she didn't want to have anything to do with me when I became pregnant. She stopped socialising, if I bumped into her she ignored the fact I was expecting and didn't want to see my new baby - didn't even look in the pram when we did meet by chance. She has now adopted a gorgeous baby and is happy now meet up again and for our children to play together. This or variations of this have been repeated several times. At the moment my very best and oldest friend doesn't seem to want anything to do with me, she got married a couple of years ago and I know (we were very close) was hoping to have a baby straight away but it hasn't happened. She hasn't said this is why she's not intouch and maybe I'm jumping to the wrong conclusion but I can't think of any other. All this comes on top of being told repeatedly by my parents in law that the reason my two sister in law show no interest in our children is because they find it too hard as they don't have kids and would have desperately liked them. As far as I know neither of them has ever tried.
Ok, so after that marathon basically I'm after some perspective, is it normal for what amounts to envy to affect relationships in this way following the birth of children? Will it get better or do I just accept that's the way it is? Also can anyone suggest anything I could do to ease the situation, thanks.

OK I have been lucky enough not to have struggled to conceive as yet (and I'm sure other more knowledgeable MNers will be along soon to offer their perspective), but I imagine this is a self-preservation thing on their part. It must be incredibly upsetting to see you so happy with your two DDs while seemingly unable to have children themselves.

I get that their fertility struggles are not your fault but you might show a little more empathy here. Can you really not understand why they might not want to spend a lot of time with you and your children?

Also, your comment that as far as you know your SILs are not trying anyway - is there any reason why you would know? Many people don't share widely that they are TTC, and some for the precise reason that they are struggling to.

Perhaps you could gently reach out and suggest catching up for a coffee (just you, not the kids) to touch base. It sounds like your relationships need some TLC on a platform that has nothing to do with babies etc.

As someone on the other side to you, yes, this can be normal. You cannot appreciate how hard it is when you are struggling to get or stay pregnant and it is seemingly happening so easily for those around.

Over 2 and a half years of trying and 4 miscarriages and we're currently having a break from TTC whilst several friends who started trying for their first after us are expecting their second in autumn.

It is self preservation. Personally, I have never avoided friends who are pregnant or have children but that is because I'm worried that if I leave it any length of time I won't be able to.

It can go both ways too. One of my friends avoided me after my second miscarriage when she was pregnant.

Studies suggest that infertility is one of the more stressful events in life, I'm talking cancer, serious illness etc...

Just after I had my second chemical, my best friend announced in front of a large group that they were expecting and our due dates were close. I felt punched in the stomachs. I knew they'd only been trying a few months. Depression descended, not because of jealousy, but my absolute feeling of failure. I cried the rest of the day and couldn't get out of bed that day. I've since texted saying we're pursuing fertility treatment, but haven't seen her. And won't see her. I'm not putting her needs and feelings above my own in order to protect myself from the black dog.

Show some compassion towards barren women who feel they should be able to do something as simple as procreate and can't.

I don't have DC yet so I can't speak from experience, but in a way I get where you're coming from. I've got a friend whom I've known roughly half my life who is barely responding to me at all since I've been ttc, not because of envy over having a baby or anything (afaik), it's more that she's still in that stage of going out clubbing and spontaneous nights out and my life has moved on from that since I got married, started a degree and pursued a career.

I guess people will always have their emotional stuff which influences relationships, good or bad. I can sympathise with your friends who don't have but would like children, having been there myself when other women around me have conceived. But I also understand why it must be hard for you to accommodate that sometimes when dealing with your own experiences and emotions.

I agree with the previous comments that while I have some sympathy for you (it isn't actually your fault that you've been so lucky in this department!), I think you really do have to try and have empathy for what they're going through. I'm sure it isn't nice feeling ignored by them, but it's much, much more painful to be in a position where the pain of your childlessness is so much that it stops you seeing a friend or family member. Your 'what amounts to envy' is a very dismissive way of talking about the real pain they're in.

On the 'is there anything I can do?' front - I do wonder about the fact that this has happened to you quite so much. What exactly are you expecting in terms of 'interest' in your children? I've tried really hard not to withdraw from friends with children, and I've also worked hard to be positive and excited about my SIL's pregnancy (which she found out about a few days before my first miscarriage. Since then I've had another two. She's due ten days before I would have been if the first one had worked out, and it is hard having that constant reminder of what could have been), but I would find it hard to spend time around someone who talked about nothing but their children. Complaints can also be really hard to take - of course both pregnancy and parenthood are hard and of course people aren't always happy about them all the time, but when it's what you want and desperately can't have it's so horrible to hear someone else complain about it. On the other hand smugness isn't easy either; 'my daughters are the best thing to ever happen to me' is galling for a person beginning to fear they can't have their own children, a reminder that nothing else will ever quite replace that.

You sound like you're trying - even posting is a sign of that - so it's possible you are being as sensitive as possible and that they're just in too much pain to be around you and your children now. That's hard, if so, but no one's fault. Do think about your own behaviour, though. It sounds like you never had any period at all of wanting children but not having them, so I think you are maybe underestimating quite what the scale of the emotions involved in that are.

Sorry for the mammoth post!

Hi @nicae sounds like a really hard situation, and while I can understand (From experience) how hard it can be to hear about friends falling pregnant, I can still feel happy for them and be part of their lives. My friend did exactly what you've gone through and it's been hard to be back in touch now she's got a baby of her own after so little support and friendship during my pregnancy and having a new baby.

i don't know what to suggest other than to surround yourself woth supportive friends and family who are able to separate their envy from their genuine happiness for you.

For women who are childless and desperately want a baby (myself included), a certain amount of self preservation kicks in when you're confronted by friends with their bountiful bumps and babies. You've done bothering wrong, this is just their coping mechanism.

How I mis the closeness I had with one of my best friends, but whilst she's in her new baby cocoon and I can't even release an egg... yes I will write and ask after her family, send gifts, ask "if there's anything I can do". But please don't expect me to coo into the carrycot of a healthy baby conceived at the click of a finger when I'm doing all I can to hold it together.

*nothing not bothering!

Honestly I'm surprised you need perspective on this? You know how amazing your kids are and they just came to you. Like maybe on your first cycle of trying? Can you not step outside the situation and imagine a life where you tried month on month, year on year. Bought tests and vitamins and potions that promised you'd get the one thing you wanted most in life. Had everyone around you ask when you'd be a mother. Have others tell you of all the things you couldn't possibly understand unless you're a mother. Have your heart ache every day for the one thing you desperately want but no matter what you just can't have.

And there is someone else with something you would kill for. And it came to them with no effort at all. You can't imagine how soul destroying that would be, how you'd probably want to avoid that pain at all costs?

And there is no point saying you don't think they're trying. It took 4 very very painful years for me to have DS . No one but my husband had a clue and they still don't.

Thank you for all the responses, I'm genuinely grateful to hear the different opinions. I don't feel at all sorry for myself in terms of changing relationships with friends, I'm surrounded by help and support, bloody hell I sound like my life is so perfect don't I?! No wonder people want to avoid me, I'm going off me too! I guess I'm just sad that my friends and sister in laws can't get some pleasure from my kids in the way I did from other people's before I thought I would have any children. i don't feel it's right to relay any details about members of my family but I do know a lot about both sister in laws situations and they are not trying to conceive but both would have liked to be married with kids by now. I think (correct me if I'm wrong!) that there is probably a big difference between wanting children and not being in a position to have them and trying to conceive and not being able to. Anyway thank you and I desperately hope that those of you struggling with this now get the happy ending you're after.

I guess I'm just sad that my friends and sister in laws can't get some pleasure from my kids in the way I did from other people's before I thought I would have any children

At what point did you think you wouldn't have children? Before you met your partner? Because there's a huge difference between a vague 'what if I never meet anyone' and 'what if I biologically can't have children, as the evidence seems to suggest?'. Again, I think you just have no conception of the pain they're in.

That's pretty much what I said at the end of my last post and yes I think you must be right.

It is a difficult situation. My friends who have been lucky enough to have children easily will never understand how I feel. Just as I will never understand what it is like to be on their side and be pregnant/have a baby when your best friend is repeatedly going through miscarriages.

I can take pleasure from my friend's children, my goddaughter and my nieces and nephew. However, the sadness I feel for myself and DH can also be very overwhelming and the sheer desperation of wanting to have our own children and knowing we have virtually no control over that can take over.

So don't take it personally. It most likely isn't anything against you, more the situation.

Yes, it is hard on everyone. I do, for what it's worth, feel quite guilty for the fact that I think SIL has felt she has to play down her pregnancy happiness around me. I wouldn't let my mum tell them about my third one because it was a couple of days before her twenty week scan and I felt like I just couldn't take the shine off yet another of their pregnancy milestones.

On the point about your SILs - how old are they? Because if they are are at the age where it's not 'what if I don't meet someone in time to have children' but 'I have not met someone in time to have children' then, again, I think that's a harder and much more painful place to be.

I'm someone on the outside who's best friend just had a baby. I'd been pregnant twice before her and lost them, one a stillborn. I'm not envious of her baby. i love it and love her but she doesn't have time for me anymore and it feels like she feels the world revolves around her her baby and her busy busy life. i reach out often but it gets boring after a while. I know babies are hard work and take up a lot of time but when i cant get a reply to a txt it's a bit of a joke really. So they're could be other things at play.

The most depressing thing about TTC is constantly wondering "when will it be my turn" and when you see friend after friend falling pregnant, new couples falling pregnant & family members sending their kids to school... and you're just here, 8 years married, thinking "when will it be my turn"

That's why they avoid you. It's just too painful sometimes.

And for your friend with the adoptive baby. She probably still feels the pull and the ache to carry her own baby, but she's made her peace with it and has probably overcome so many difficult emotions that we can't even comprehend what she feels when she looks at you and your kids. Please try to understand the yearning doesn't just go away, it just gets put to bed.

Oh gosh, when we were struggling to conceive dd, and had loss after loss, I couldn't bear to even look at pregnant women as it was just too painful. It wasn't anything personal, just that it was a reminder of what I so desperately wanted, and what I couldn't have. After each loss, seeing someone who was pregnant felt like a knife was being twisted in my chest, it physically hurt that much.
Some people who have had difficulty in having a baby don't feel as extreme as this. Some people take pleasure and joy in other women's growing bumps, and subsequent babies. But, for those women who can't do that, I think you need to have more empathy.
Since having dd, I can now look at a bump, or a baby, and I start smiling without even being aware of it. This is how it should be, and I am so glad that I can again feel such happiness in other people's miracles. Infertility and pregnancy loss is just devastating, and is such a challenge to get through, let alone having to paste on a smile and look happy for friends when they have what you so desperately want. It is not as simple as straightforward envy, it is more physical than that, and self-preservation in this situation makes perfect sense.