How old is too old?

[dh1]

Hello there mums (and I hope a few dads there too).
I'm very new to posting on mumsnet, so apologies if I'm long winded or if I make any crass etiquette mistakes but...
My DW and I have got ourselves kind of locked into a "no-one can win" situation regarding trying to conceive. Cut a long story short, my DW is desperate to have child no.2, I'm not so keen, mainly 'cos I wish we were about 10 or 15 years younger.
I'm in my late 40's and my DW is too. We have one ds - who actually is the world's best boy (I'm sorry ladies, you might think otherwise, but he is! :-)). Our "history" of ttc is "chequered". A bit like the old musical hall joke (remember I'm in my late 40s) "Honour, offer, honour, offer"... by which I mean that over the last 4 years we've gone through phases of trying, not trying, trying, not trying.
It puts a real strain on our relationship. We both love each other very much (I think :-/) but it really does strain our togetherness. Over this time my DW has had three miscarrieages, one was a "bit of a mistake", the other two were very much "planned" following nearly a year of very strained life during which my DW wanted to try again and I didn't, but after which I felt that the only way to move our life on again was to "give in" to my Dw's desire to try again.
(I've put "give in" in parenthesis to try to explain why I changed my thinking...it was more to do with having come to a decision which although I felt went against my intuition I was prepared to "go with". I don't want flak for this, but sometimes I find that women have difficulty understanding that men compartmentalise and can reverse their thinking, go ahead and embrace an idea they were against previously and try to make it really work, with enthusiasm.)
However, as I said, we're now in our late 40s and I think I'm too old (and my DW too). My DW doesn't. I worry about being the oldest parent in Primary school (although I guess I probably am at the moment), about HAVING to work until I'm 70+, I also worry about my DW having problems if she does conceive and go full term, about the child having problems, about how the kids might feel about having a dad who not only is old enough to be their grandad, but could be their great granddad! And now I'm sitting here listening to an article on the Jeremy Vine show about the effects of "losing your father" on kids...
Why post on mumsnet? Well as i said, we both love each other very much, but I guess we feel as though we are very much at an impasse now. I can't see a 'compromise' here. Either we keep trying or we don't. We're climbing the walls with each other. Nothing else gets discussed, nothing moves forward, we both know it's getting in the way. I s there a compromise? Is there something here that we're not seeing? Should I just 'get on with it" and agree to try again (again, again, if you know what I mean) and take each day as it comes? If I do, how responsible is that being?

Our friends tend to avoid this discussion (who can blame them?) partly because it has been going on for quite a while now and there's nothing new come of it.

I hate to say this, because it might sound wrong, but I guess we already know there is no set answer to this question, but I guess I might just be interested to see what other people's take is on this subject, try to look outside our own circle.

Hi, sorry you and your wife are having trouble with this. People always have views and judgements on other people as parents, not just based on age, and at the end of the day none of that matters. Only you know if you could be happy with another child and if it is worth the worry.

The only thing I would say (and I'm sure from your post that you know this first hand!) is that women can become really obsessed with having another child and the danger is that your wife will resent the fact that she didn't give it one last chance, especially as nature will ultimately dictate (sooner rather than later) that your DW won't be able to have more children.

If you do try maybe you need to mutually agree some boundaries - i.e you'll only try for a certian period of time, and after that agree that there will be no more attempts. Easier said than done though!

Rachelrose, lol - obsessive!that's putting it mildly. I guess the problem I have is that I don't understand the obsession or why my DW should be so inclined when plenty of our friends in similar situations are not. Still, I suppose that is part of the nature of obsessions, we are all individuals.

Thanks for your words, much of what you say has been my experience up until now, breaking the logjam is going to require inventiveness or just plain old "giving in", by someone....but I'd like to think that it is a situation to which some logic might be applied, although I have been warned by a few female friends to simply forget logic - it doesn't get a look in! Still, feedback, views always welcome.

Hi dh1 - I'm an older mum, and well know the emotional roller coaster of trying/not trying and when to stop. It's hard situation.

A few questions - how old is your wife? Has she had fertility treatments in the past? Would you/she be willing to have fertility treatments to conceive in future or would age simply be nature's answer to your dilemma?

Hi Earlybird - DW has had fertility treatments, (she's 46) helped with most recent conceptions, which sadly ended in miscarriage.
I guess age would help solve the problem, but tbh there's the psychological side of the issue i.e. "letting it happen" as opposed to doing something about it. One of my friends suggested going along with ttc, "safe in the knowledge that it might never happen or that my DW would miscarry again", but that's way too cynical for me. But, you can see how it might be a reasonable alternative strategy.

Once we had one child, dh and I both knew we definitely wanted another, that our lives would not be complete without another child. OTOH, after no2 was born we did not agree. Dh was happy to stick at two, I wanted more. Eventually we reached a compromise: we would try until I reached a certain age, and then accept whatever we had. Deciding on that compromise, and acting upon it, was a very good thing, because until then certain aspects of our relationship were quite strained because of the feeling of 'where are our lives going?'. Also, once I had conceived and miscarried, it brought home to dh how he really felt about it all, and he realised that for him there was no compromise - he also wanted another child. I chose my cut-off point of 40y. This is not just because of the added risks to baby and to mother of being older, but because I want to have the youth and energy to enjoy my chldren and for them to enjoy me, and, very importantly so that when they are older I will still be young enough to be a couple with dh again.

This is my experience - whether or not it helps you, I don't know. I intend no criticism or comment on your dw's attitude to her age (only she can dictate how old she feels).

What you will have to be prepared for, if together you choose not to have another child, is for her to grieve for the children that she will not have. I conceived my first two unbelievably easily, but then took a year and two miscarriages to conceive my third. To my mind that's a message from my body telling me that time is running out on my bio-clock. We were one month short of our deadline when I conceived no3, and I was already begining to try to come to terms witht hte fact that no3 was not to be, and beginning to grieve.

What a dilemma. I wouldn't worry about being the oldest parent, really- dh was 49 when dd was born, and his age has never been an issue for them or us, and he's not markedly older than many other parents in the playground. I guess realistically your dw is living on borrowed time though; 46 is getting quite old for fertility treatment to have a reasonable success rate, and the risk of DS is getting quite high by 46 (which may or may not be an issue). I would have preferred to have a third child but didn't because of my age, so I can completely sympathise. I don't think there are any easy answers though

Hmm, yes I see. I had fertility treatment to conceive dd1, who was born when I was 42. I was unsure if I wanted to try for a second, but realised I didn't biologically have long to hang around. I went for much more aggressive/invasive fertility treatments to try for a second (my levels demanded it) and eventually conceived though sadly had a miscarriage. I took the approach that I would give it everything for a fixed period (for me until I was 45). That was the age threshold when my clinic told me that IVF would probably not work, and that in order to conceive/give birth I would need to bump up to an egg donor. That was the point at which I stopped.

I could have kept going, and might very well have been fortunate. But, it is a huge physical, emotional and financial commitment. I decided that I had given it my all for that finite period, and that it was time for me to stop trying. It is a very personal decision. But, I wanted to enjoy dd fully rather than focus on what I didn't have in my life. My osteopath (who specialises in fertilty assistance) told me of many women who become virtually obsessed with having another child and I didn't want to be one of those.

At 46 your wife will probably need to get more and more into the realm of science in order to conceive and will likely need an egg donor unless she is very very lucky. Are you both willing to consider it?

Whatever you do, I think you both need to have a point at which it's agreed you'll stop - otherwise it can turn into an all consuming mission. Sorry for lack of cohesion and rambling - a real stream of consciousness post...

Is the genetic link really important to you both? The quickest 'solution' would be donor eggs, from a centre overseas eg Spain. I know that's a big leap from where you are at currently but the baby would still share your genes and your wife would experience pg and birth again. Iirc, at 46 c90% of your wife's eggs will be aneuploid (abnormal number of chromosomes). I'm 41 and with our next IVF cycle we are doing aneuploidy screening.

The only other thing I can suggest is that you really go for it, ttcing every month for the next year (exhausting!) and review the situation then.

Best wishes.

Earlybird, thanks for "sharing' your own experiences and tamum, prettycandles thanks for pitching in too. In some sense it is difficult to know where the grieving for the miscarriages stops (if ever) and the grieving for the loss of the future begins. One thing you have all got spot on is that there are no easy answers. PC, your comment about being a couple again after the children are grown up is part of me feeling too old, I suppose another part of that is that as someone who has always been fit and active, I want to be a fit dad....running around a park chasing a football or rugby ball is ok, for now. I also would like to be able to enjoy having a grown up son or daughter at an age when we can enjoy getting to know each other as adults and I'm not sure that at 70+ that might be an opportunity missed.
I guess part of our problem is that my DW finds it very difficult to actually talk about the situation... I'm not sure she has yet fully grieved for the most recent m/c and as time closes in...an "end game" would be appropriate, but we need to able to discuss when that might be.
Earlybird, I'd find it difficult to agree to go the extra step of egg donation and tbh I'm not sure that my DW wants to go down that route - I think she is "locked in" to her ability to have another child. So Deux, I guess that answers your point too.

thanks again folks, it does help to get views from people who don't know you or have any particular axe to grind.

It's hard to know what to do/when to stop trying. I know I physically felt fine/strong, and certainly didn't look my age. I struggled to accept that in spite of looking/feeling healthy, my body probably wasn't going to cooperate with my desire for another child. I kept thinking that there must be some way science could make it happen, or that the next try would be the successful one. But, as we've all said, there comes a point where you must decide to stop.

It's possible that your dw might benefit from some short term specific counselling on this subject - especially if your reluctance to try for a second child is something she could feel angry about later. It might also help her to talk to someone neutral - just as it's helped you to post here.

Good luck with your decisions. And do let us know how you get on.

So sorry you are going through this, dh1. I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said, but wanted to offer my sympathies. I was an older first-time mum (41) and am now unlikely to have any more (I'd like to try again; he wouldn't). I know how painful it is to have to draw a line and say no more; I am also certain that it is absolutely essential that your wife does this in order to be able to move on and allow herself to be happy with the family she has. Whether that deadline is now or in one year, or two, is up to you two. Clearly she would be lucky to get pregnant again, though it is far from impossible, but I think just keeping going till menopause would be very difficult psychologically.

For your part, I suggest you don't just refuse to go any further (I say this with very little knowledge of what you have gone through up to this point, of course). If you possibly can, allow her a little more time up to the deadline that you mutually agree. It will be very difficult for your relationship if she casts you in the role as the man who wouldn't allow her another child.

Finally, it really sounds as though your wife could do with some external support - a wise friend, or a counsellor, or one of the infertility orgs. She sounds very distressed and as though help will be needed to allow her to move on positively, proud of and grateful for the family she already has.

I know how hard this is - I tried to get pregnant for years, and ran up to and past my own deadline before I finally cracked it - so huge sympathies to both of you.

Could I also just say that I think many women are done a huge disservice by the media. We are constantly shown older (sometimes ludicrously older) women who have become mothers, so it's logical to assume it can be done with medical help. What we're not shown is the women/couples who aren't successful in their attempts. We're also not told that almost all of these women have used egg donors. It's misleading, and for some, heartbreaking when they realise how extremely difficult it actually is to become an older mum. We are led to believe that science can simply "make it happen".

I so agree, Earlybird. It makes it much harder to get off the miserable merry-go-round of ttc and move on. All we seem to hear is miracle stories and the insidious message that if you want it hard enough, you can make it happen. Which just isn't true, for most of us.

Hester you'll certainly be able to appreciate my DW's "side" of this then. But the point that both you and Earlybird make is very relevant - we married "late-ish"39 and 37 - and we have a smashing boy. We should appreciate our good fortune. There are many who are not so fortunate. The "super woman" idea is great in terms of getting girls off their backsides and helping them to realise that life doesn't have to dictate to them, but usually there is a price to pay. Although really that's not "a price" as such, it's more a sensible, logical, physical even - compromise - where compromise is seen in its real context, as a strong word where you take the circumstances and achieve the best with them, rather than a weak word, where we are seen to be giving something up.

Drawing a line is one very strong idea that I've picked up from all of the contributions I've received and I guess the trick is finding a way of broaching that in the right sense that it seems "fair" in terms of 'enough time"(if indeed there is any real notion of 'fair' in these circumstances).

Earlybird, I think the point that you make has something in it too - as two people who have always tried to keep ourselves fit, neither my DW or I look our ages (or so we keep telling ourselves..), added to which having to keep fit to run around with our ds helps us believe that "50 is the new 40" - but in reality, we are now well into middle age (ouch) and although the mirror might help with the lie, the old birth certificates don't.

Will certainly let you all know how we get on as and when, although I can't help feeling there is a certain inevitability about things and in such circumstances I do tend to a wish to look forward and move on...perhaps this is one occasion where dallying a little longer might be advisable.

I feel for you and good luck in whatever you decide.

dh1. I don't think the 'older father' thing is an issue here. Certainly in our part of the world (Surrey) fathers under 30 are rare. If you're both taking care of yourself physically then the challenges of being an 'older' parent needn't necessarily apply.

I can understand your DW's 'need' for another child. And I would suggest that it might be worth seeking fertility treatment, if only to avoid the future thought that 'it may have worked' It might work...it may not.. Is your DW still ovulating?

I'm rambling here and I don't know if I'm helping or hindering, TBH.

Good luck with all of this and enjoy your wonderful DS.

I have one (fantastic) DS and would really have liked another had I been younger. It's not so much the concern of conceiving for me but the concern of having a 10 year old running about the house with heavy demands when you are just coming up to retirement. Physically I don't think parents that age are up to running about after their young kids. Mentally I'm sure they are able but I have my doubts physically IYSWIM. I'm not saying it's wrong but personaly it's not for me...but it took a long time to reach this decision.

dh1 - it may very well be that your dw's doctor will gently tell her how things are for a 46 year old woman. It's extremely sobering to look at a few pages of medical statistics pertaining to age/conception/live birth and to see how/if fertility treatment can work. I suspect that then you both will have the donor egg conversation, and if that route truly isn't one she (and you of course) wishes to pursue, then she will come to the conclusion that it's probably time to stop. I think you are wise to let it lie for the moment. Let the doctors and statistics speak.

It is painful, and I am glad you will be there to support her.

How does DW feel about her age though? Does she feel there is an age she should stop? It really doesn't matter whether anyone else feels she is too old, it matters how she feels about it, and how you do.

Have you worked through the options together from a standpoint of yes DW I'd love another child too

Personally I'd sit down with a large glass of wine after putting DS to bed and list it out together with all the pros and cons

ie

1. Continue trying
2. Donor eggs
3. Adopt from UK
4. Adopt from overseas
5. Foster

Things about me that might help you understand better, or might not:

Wanting another child can be a physical pain, and certainly an all-consuming one

Knowing that you're never going to have another IMHO puts an end to a youthful stage in your life .. even though I'm older I can still convince myself I'm a 'young mum' because my children are so young .. so when this phase ends what does that make me? Do I fade into the background? Its so much more than about the children it explains who I am (particularly strong as I'm a SAHM)

when DH said 'no' to no. 3 I was so very broody it hurt, but as soon as he changed his mind .. agree with the compartmentalisation btw.... I stopped feeling broody was able to be rational and changed my mind and said actually I don't want any more .. I think sometimes some women, like me, can be contrary creatures

I found when I was obsessed with conceiving no. 2 I missed out on a hell of a lot with no. 1

DH1, at a meeting last week, I was speaking to one of my new colleagues. We got onto the subject of children and she told me that she was 40yo when she married her husband who is younger than she. They decided to start trying for a baby straight away and nothing happened so they tried IVF treatment for a couple of years. Again nothing happened. By this time she was 45yo and they decided to adopt. They were well into the adoption process when she discovered, at age 46yo, that she had fallen pregnant naturally! She gave birth to a healthy baby boy. He is now 5yo and and the joy of her life. She gave up her career (city accountant)to be with him and has taken a part-time job now that he is at school. She is 52yo but looks like someone in their early 40s and is very healthy.

When I was at university, a professor and his wife became parents for the first time and they were both 48yo.

What we sometimes forget in the sanitised, modern age that we now live in, is that in the olden days, women would have children naturally well into their late 40s. Even now in less developed countries this is still the case. If you are fit, healthy and prepared, I honestly believe that you and your DW will be able to cope with another child, if that is what you both want.

Good luck!

Hi - I just wanted to say how much hope this conversation has given me. I fully admit to being a bit ignorant about conception. I'm 37 and trying for my first baby - and I was starting to think I had no hope of conceiving naturally - but it does sounds as though some people manage it at an even older age - hurrah!! Can I just ask though - how long do you think we should wait before trying IVF? I don't want to be an ancient Mum, and my husband is 13 years older so doesn't want to wait too long either!

Stillhopeful, I fell pregnant with my first baby after trying for 7 weeks but that ended in miscarriage. Four months later I tried again and fell pregnant with my twins after 3 weeks. I was 39yo. I think you should give it at least a year and try to relax. If you don't already, take zinc supplements as zinc is needed by the spermatazoa and ova for mobility. Get your partner to take zinc too. Also, stop using tampons if you use them because they dry out the vaginal tract and that will hamper mobility also. Don't forget to take folic acid too.

Good luck!

Stillhopeful .. buy Toni Weschler's book How to take charge of your fertility

and I'd try for 6 months before seeking advice

Stillhopeful, you have every reason to feel positive - at your age the vast majority of women can still get pregnant. I completely agree with Twiglett's advice, and would add that IVF is only a treatment for some kinds of fertility problems, not a panacea for subfertility. In fact, it has relatively low success rates (certainly for older women) and should only be used if it is appropriate and specific for your condition. If there is nothing specifically wrong with your fertility (e.g. blocked tubes, low sperm count etc) then you are much better off spending the next year just having lots of sex and optimising your fertility through natural methods.

I'm really not anti-IVF, but it worries me that too many women (a) turn to it too soon, and (b) assume it will result in a baby. I read a study once that concluded that most 40-year-olds, if having regular sex, can and will get pregnant over two years but there is a very real problem with them basically giving up sex in order to focus on IVF prematurely. But do see your doctor: 37 is definitely not too old for a baby, but you should expect it to take a little longer than if you were 27, and be ready to act quickly to get medical investigation if you do have problems conceiving.

Best of luck.

And best of luck to you too dh1 - I really do feel for you and dw. Let us know how you get on.