ICSI

[Karbea]

Hello,

I've just been on the phone to the lab of the clinic we are using and have my DH's results:

Vol :3.4ml
Count 7mil
Mobility 65%
abnormal 90-95%
excess round cells

so the recommendation is ICSI.

These are really bad arent they???

DH is now saying maybe we should just call it a day and wonders what the success rate is for ICSI (it looks like 70% fertilisation and then the regular 25% for a born baby).

I'm sort of worried that if only 5-10% of his sperm are normal aren't they going to be picking the best looking sperm out of a pot of ugly sperm (iykwim) rather than the best of the best...

DH and I have pretty much had a row about this just now, he has had 3 months to improve and although he has "sort of" given up drinking he hasn't 100% I wouldn't say he has made too much of an effort diet wise (battered sausage and chips last night), and has booked to go on a cycle ride tomorrow, he also has a mega stressy job (which he can't help).

I know ICSI does work, but is it possible it will work for us, and will we end up with a "normal" baby???

I've seen so many women at the fertility clinic who I have felt are really unlikely to get pregnant but they keep on trying if we really only have a tiny (5%) chance of this happening... I think we'd both rather just stop :(

Hallo - please do not despair. Am 9 months pregnant after ICSI (lonnnng story) and as my RE said, they only need one sperm. Just one!

PS yes your baby will be normal

Hi Karbea.

My closest friend has had ICSI so maybe I can help a little.

First of all, don't worry overly about the 90-95% abnormal forms. I think it hardly ever gets above 85%. It's just a fact that most swimmers are useless, even in the best samples! I think most labs here use the Kruger scale, which is explained a bit here: www.fertilitydr.com/male-infertility-semen-analysis-kruger.html.

Getting back to my friend, she had a real battle. She had endo lasered away twice on their ttc journey and was told after that that she had as good a chance of conceiving as anyone. Then her husband's tests came back. He was told he would never be a father. He had practically no sperm. They were distraught. He was restested after a few months and the results had improved. he puts this down to being under a lot of family stress at the time of the first test and making an effort to clean up his act (diet, binge drinking, etc) for the second test. They went ahead and had ICSI. They found the first round incredibly stressful (I can recall seeing my friend at this time and she was in a real mess) and didn't get pg. However, the ICSI has successfully fertilised a number of spare embryos to freeze. She rested a couple of cycles and then had two of the embryos implanted. These initially showed on the early scan as twins but only one made it past a few weeks. She went on to have a gorgeous baby girl. There was one embryo left in the freezer so they decided to use that, not expecting it to work, before they had another round of IVF. Not only did it work, it split and she now has identical twin sons (and a lot of sleepless nights!). So for her ICSI worked very well indeed!

I completely understand your frustration at your husband. I have a devil of a time trying to get mine to have one pill a day (I am currenly on 8...). He got a bit better when I explained what I would have to go through (the injections, and so on) if he didn't knock me up naturally! I think making him feel a bit selfish helped, although he is still not great about it. Fortunately his diet and drinking habits are already pretty good.

Another do not despair voice here!

The great majority of people who have ICSI will have had 'bad' SA results, so any ICSI stats will be 'bad' sperm stats if that makes sense.

My understanding is that the overall outcomes for IVF vs. ICSI are broadly similar. Slightly higher fertilisation and bfp rate for ICSI but slightly lower live birth rate - but the difference isn't significant enough for there to be any concerns about not ending up with a 'normal' baby.

The cut-off for IVF is a count of 5 mil, so although you've presumably been recommended ICSI because the count is just above that and they have looked at the other results too, to me I think it looks like a 'good' result for ICSI (iykwim).

As Topaz says, it really does only take one. (Or possibly two, says the lady hopefully 10 weeks upduffed with twins after ICSI... )

Thanks Ladies, I guess that's it isn't it... Do DH's results look "good" for ICSI versus other mens results who've had ICSI. I guess it's like being the top performer in the bottom set at school

Poor DH... he feels so s**t about this...

Ooo Karbea I've just remembered one other thing. Because my DH's results were very, very, bad we did have 'karotype' testing done. As I understand it, this checks whether there is a genetic reason for the low count and whether there might be a genetic condition passed on to your child - something that 'natural selection' might not have allowed to be passed on.

If you are worried you could ask about this? We got the test done when we had our NHS ICSI and our ACU (Guy's) seemed pretty on on the ball about it. However, my gut feeling would be that you DH's count isn't low enough for them to worry about this.

And yes, I do think many DHs take poor SA badly. Not only can they not give you the child you both obviously want but I do think they feel it reflects on them as 'a man'. I don't know the best way to reassure your DH about this but stick with it and you'll get there x.

Teds my friend was at Guys too.

We are going to the ARGC, my monitoring starts on Monday/Tuesday (when AF arrives...).

I think DHs results are due to Alcohol, cycling, stress, hot baths etc... we read a list of things that effect fertility and it could have been a list of DHs fav things... poor love! Not that he loves stress... but you know what I mean.

Exactly, DH has always been a high achiever and I think this has all thrown him tbh, the first results from his GP were "average" and even then he was put out "i've nevr been average at anything!", we never saw the actual results and I know some GPs interpret things differently to fertility experts...

I'll ask them about the genetic tests, thank you TEDS.

Well my dh's results are much worse than that (1.8 mil and mobility 14%) and we have been given a 50% success chance for icsi so keep your chin up!!

Another ICSI success story here. My dh had poor count, motility and abnormality levels (and I had loads of issues). Please try not to blame your dh, mine made all the changes that were supposed to improve things but nothing got better (not even slightly). The ivf/icsi process is soooo stressful you can't be falling out at this early phase.

oh god I don't blame DH at all! I could quite easily have problems too.

Hi Karbea just wanted to let you know you're not alone
DH had a count of

Karbea spoke to you on another thread, and I think I was probably a bit blunt over percentage fertiliisation rates. I didn't mean to be. I know my answer wasn't re ICSI, but about IVF. Our clinic gave a 70% fertilisation rate. Our fertilisation rate was 100%. I'm making a mess of this post, but what I'm trying to say is that an average is just that. You may do a lot better. Whether to go through treatment is a very personal decision, but you may well be successful.