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Secondary infertility - TTC 18mths - male perspective

16 replies

beardpapa · 28/06/2011 19:39

Hello, this is my first post on these boards. Having read around these forums for a while I know that most of the readership are ladies - hello to you all. I am a husband and a father, and this is my story.

My wife and I have a little girl who is almost 2.5yrs now. She is the light in our lives and every day I thank the heavens and the stars above for our lives being blessed with her presence. We conceived her naturally and very quickly, and we have now been trying to conceive our second for 1.5yrs. After a year of trying by ourselves we had 3 rounds of non-medicated IUI recently which were not successful, and now we are back to trying by ourselves again.

My wife turned 37 a few months ago and I will turn 36 shortly. When we had our first IUI we discovered that although I had very good sperm count, the motility and morphology readings were abnormally low - the morphology was at 3% and the motile sperm was something like 15%. Technically that made me infertile.

It took me a while to accept that I was infertile, but once that hit home I went through a quick period of awakening and reassessing my priorities. I realised that what I want most of all right now is another little baby to cherish, and that at my wife's age, time is slipping away. Since the last of the IUIs I have been making big changes to my lifestyle and diet, taking supplements and hoping that this will increase our chances of conceiving.

During our first year of trying I was, perhaps typical of the male psyche, sure that we would conceive naturally again, and that it would happen 'soon'. What I hadn't realised was that all throughout this time my loving wife had been on an emotional rollercoaster with each month and each cycle. Frequently she would ask me whether it would be 'this month' and want to talk to me about what to do next... and during this time... I was too naive and thought little of it, and looking back, I was not there for her, I did not give her the support and comfort she needed, and I didn't have much of a plan as to what to do next and when. These are the things that I only now realise she needed, and for all this time of trying, she had to go through all these nights alone with her thoughts and her worries. I feel ashamed and frankly devastated to know she had to endure all this alone without me being there for her, even though we shared the same bed.

Around six months ago my wife was so fired up that she was willing to consider IVF, but since then she has gone cool on the idea and now is beginning to feel that her body is starting to age and is now even no longer sure that she is up to the physical demands of pregnancy. She has now started to accept that we may not have another one, and that if that were to happen she would be happy to focus on the lovely child that we do have, rather than risk the emotional and physical toll of going through IVF.

I am not there yet. I still think we should make a push for a second one. I truly, really, wrenchingly want another child, and I am now there for her 100% and she can see the big effot I am putting in. Our relationship is very good but unfortunately I feel my efforts are too late for her to change her mind about IVF and I feel gutted that I hadn't done this sooner.

OP posts:
piprabbit · 28/06/2011 21:34

Hi, i didn't want your OP to go unanswered as it sounds like you are having such a tough time.

Secondary infertility is a real blindsider - so unexpected.

No advice really Sad, just keep talking to your wife, sharing how you both feel and supporting each other, whatever you decide is the right way for you to move on.

pointsmakeprizes · 29/06/2011 22:26

Hi there, your story sounds very similar to ours. My DH and I have been trying for DC 2 for 2 years now. I have gone through all the feelings that your wife has gone through and still do. All the time my husband has said it will happen soon, it will be our turn next but has never given the support or shown any understanding of what I have had to go through. Almost brushing off my worries adn fears. My DH also had very similar sperm results to you, although his count was good so we were told this over rode his poor motility and morphology results. We are diagnosed with secondary infertility and on the waiting list for IVF. My husband has not been proactive in any of this, I have had to organise and arrange the tests and depsite his poor test results he still seems to act as if there are no issues leaving me to deal with the emotional side of things.

It's great that you have been so proactive and want to try IVF. However, I understand your wife's point of view. I am also beginning to reach the conclusion that I should accept the fact that I am going to have one child only and to make the best of that. My problem is that it's not that I don't want another child, it's the fact that after all the strain and stress of this I don't think I want another child with my husband. Deep down I feel that after all the turmoil I have put myself through, shouldering the responsibility and pain of infertility why should I put myself through yet more pain and anguish and do IVF to produce another child for him. I know this sounds completely selfish and not rational but after 2 years this is the conclusion that I am coming to. I know I sound like I am cutting of my nose to spite my face, there is no logic but I can't stop the resentment I feel towards my husband. I will still probably do IVF because I do want another child but I am not sure how I will feel when I am doing and how my resentment will rear it's ugly head.

I really hope you can work through things with your wife and you sound like a very caring and understanding husband that wants to make time for his wife. Whenever I have tried to raise these issues with my husband he has tried to ignore them or bury his head in the sand, I don't think he realises how badly this has effected our relationship.

ParisGarters · 30/06/2011 10:40

Hi,

I just wanted to give your thread a little bump.

I know this may sound like a simple question, but have you said all of this to your wife? I think if I were in your wife's position I too would be preparing for the possibility of not having a second child. Knowing that my partner were there every step of the way might make all the difference.

On a practical level, my understanding is that it takes about 90 days for sperm to improve, so you need to leave at least this long for any changes of life style to make a difference.

Is it worth trying to have a couple of sessions with a counsellor just to help you both navigate the conflicting emotions. It might be that there is more shared ground than you think, but when you are both feeling tired and vulnerable it can be difficult to find. A skilled third party might just get you on firmer footing to face whatever happens next.

You sound like a lovely man, and great partner. Most people will have instances in their relationship where they have not fully responded to their partner's emotional needs, but the important thing is that you now find a way to move through this together.

beardpapa · 07/08/2011 15:24

Hi, and thanks so much for your comments. Sorry for not replying sooner. I am still finding it difficult to deal with these feelings, and the despair each month of knowing it hasn't happened yet... I know my wife is suffering with these too.

One of the things that I never understood during our first year or so of TTC was why my wife spent so much time on forums and boards like this one. Now I realise. Sharing gives you a sense that you're not alone, that there are others out there who have gone through, and are going through the same issues that you're dealing with.

piprabit: thanks for your comment. I've been opening up a lot more with my wife recently, though it is still difficult for us both and quite often I don't know how to comfort/answer her when there are difficult questions. I'm trying though. One of the hardest parts is knowing what to say/do when hope is falling away with each unsuccessful cycle. How to keep spirits up? I thought maybe we could both try some meditation to help keep a more even keel.

pointsmakeprizes: I totally understand your feelings and point of view. I am pretty sure deep down my wife feels this resentment too - she must do as I would if I was in her shoes. It really is unfair that in case of male factor infertility, the treatment is for the spouse to go through injections/hormone treatments/bloating/mood changes... I would go through all this in place of my wife if I could.

ParisGarters: yup I have said this to my wife, and I do hope she will come round to see how much having another one means to me, and understand that there isn't much in this world that I wouldn't give up for the chance to have another child with her.

These last two months or so since my 'awakening' as to her emotional needs have been a real emotional rollercoaster for me. I think I must be broody. I start getting misty eyed and blubbery at the thought of not being able to hold another little bundle of hair in my arms. I'm not normally like that. I am still rather at sea with this.

OP posts:
Biscuitsandtea · 07/08/2011 15:49

Hi,

I've just been reading your post, and could have almost written your story myself. We have a son conceived without too much trouble but then it has taken us 19 months to conceive again. We tried for a year before going to the doctors etc when we began the barrage of tests that you and your wife have no doubt been through. Similarly our results showed that my husband's motility was poor (or at least his sperms' was!). Like you he also took some steps to improve things - more exercise, gave up pepsi etc (didn't really drink much alcohol or tea / coffee etc) and started taking a male conception vitamin. We had a repeat SA done 3 months after the first and it showed a great improvement. In addition, we had been referred to the fertility clinic and they did a HSG x-ray on me (where they insert dye into your uterus and x-ray to check all the pipes etc are clear). This in itself can improve fertility as it can sometimes clear out any slight blockages apparently.

Anyway, I don't know if it might give you a little bit of hope to know that this month we got a positive result. I can hardly believe that after all the months of it not working, I am actually (for the time being at least) pregnant. Still very early days and having had a previous miscarriage (before our son) I am nervous to say the least. I would say that this is perhaps the 4th month after my husband's improved SA result.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that if you (or your wife more accurately) have not had a HSG x-ray or similar investigation, it may be worth looking into that? It may still happen for you naturally and taking steps to improve your sperm quality is a great big step in the right direction!

You certainly sound as if you have your head round the emotional side that we women go through - I can assure you that try as my husband might he could never quite get the extent to which it gets you down. Every twinge, stomach ache, every time you go to the toilet, the constant thinking about it could only ever lead to an enormous emotional rollercoaster. Even now we're pregnant I'm hardly thinking about it less as I am so scared that something will go wrong - I don't fancy another 19 months to get another positive pregnancy test!

I do understand what you are saying about IVF too. We were looking at IVF and it was about the next thing for us to try. And it is a lot more frightening when you get close to it! A friend of mine has done IVF several times and talked me through exactly what happens and frankly it blew my mind and scared the pants off me at the same time. I had all sorts of underlying worries about interfering with my body in such a major way. And even then it might not even work. I was scared that I wouldn't be able to get through the process as it seems to be a much bigger deal than I had perhaps originally thought.

I think you can only continue to support your wife and communicate with her. Do you know anyone who has done IVF who could perhaps talk to the two of you about it? I know how hard it is to talk to people in real life about these things (hence why I find boards like this so very supportive).

Good luck - I hope that things happen naturally for you or that you manage to come to a decision soon. There is no easy answer and I know that (seemingly like your wife) I had strongly started to consider life with only 1 child - it wasn't what I had imagined when I was younger, or even when we had our son,but I was starting to think that I really needed to be extra grateful for what we had and make sure that we made the most of everything.

Good luck :)

ERANUindeed · 07/08/2011 22:45

Hi beardpapa

We are in a similar situation to you in that we conceived our first child very easily and have now been TTC no 2 for 3 years now. DHs first semen analysis was shockingly low, but to second what biscuits has already said, this can be improved by changes to your lifestyle.

DH has given up alcohol, coffee, baths, is taking loads of vitamins and exercising more. He was also prescribed tamoxifen which is supposed to improve semen results, and after a year his results had indeed increased massively.

Unfortunately a year later, and I am still not pregnant, and we have now just started ICSI.

I'm 36 next month, and I agree that I'm getting old, but still feel I can physically cope with the demands of ICSI treatment and possible resulting pregnancy WITH SUPPORT. And I write that in capitals because there is absolutely no way I would do it if DH wasn't so helpful, supportive and determined to make it work for us as a family. While I'm having treatment he has promised to do the majority of the housework and childcare if needs be. He is also aware that this may be the case if I do get pregnant, and whilst I'm breastfeeding.

I was very doubtful about trying ICSI, mainly due to the expense (we have to pay ourselves as we already have one child), but also due to the stress of it all. But we have decided to give it a go because I decided that ultimately, I think that I would bitterly regret not at least trying the one thing that could help us. If it fails at least we can then say we tried everything in our power (and budget) to have another child. Because somehow to fail knowing you tried your best, but failed due to things outside of your control, is x100 better than knowing there was more you could have done, and to be forever wondering "what if" and beating yourself up about it.

I also want to say that 18 months is not that long to be trying (I know it feels it) and I've got friends who took between 1-2 years to get pregnant despite having no fertility problems. It may still happen for you naturally. Keep talking to your DW and continue being supportive. I do hope it works out for you.

ImTheMap · 07/08/2011 22:55

May I ask what vitamins you are taking? Our story is similar to yours but results were worse. 16 months of nothing and finally some good news. My dh took high doses of vitamin C and E and Zinc.

Biscuitsandtea · 08/08/2011 06:32

My DH was just taking the wellman conception one (the male part of the pregnacare conception his and hers packs)

beardpapa · 09/08/2011 16:27

ImTheMap - I've been on Fertilaid and Motility Boost for the past two months (both from Fairhaven Health), and R-Form Alpha Lipoic Acid, as well as recently (i.e. in the last month) taking some additional supplements such as fish oil, Q10 and selenium. May I ask what amounts of Vits C and E, and Zinc did your hubby take?

Also, been loading up on fresh fruits particulary dark berries, and veg particularly leafy greens.

OP posts:
ImTheMap · 09/08/2011 19:11

max safe dose daily is 800iu vit E and 1000 mg vit C and 20mg zinc,

tablets were bought from boots own range, nothing fancy

was instructed to stop on positive test as not good long term

motile up from 6/10% to 36/39% in 4months

no hot baths and limited action...

worked out results were better after 3/4 days of abstinance!!!

beardpapa · 11/10/2011 23:37

Hello I haven't been on here for a while and thought I'd give an update, and also, to share some more thoughts on my situation. Apologies for the long post, but I'd like to hear thoughts from others on some of the issues in this post related to our chats about IVF.

No success yet, but for now we're still trying naturally. I've had one recent SA test done which showed improvement, and in a couple of weeks I'll have another test done.

I'm realising that earlier this year, whilst oblivious to me, my wife had probably already moved on and is now wanting the second child less, and is against the idea of IVF. I know deep down she still wants another one - occassionally we speak about how nice it would be to have a little brother for our daughter, but it is clear she no longer has the same fire in her belly. To be honest, after almost two years of putting her life on hold and having to watch what she eats, what medications she can have for aches and pains, when she can do certain exercises, what cosmetics and treatments she can have, and being on tenterhooks each month hoping that this is the month... I can understand that she has probably reached her limit and needs to find some way to deal with the stress and pressure and sadness, particularly when all the while I was seemingly so bullish about our chances of success and oblivious to her internal pain. We talked about this recently and she said that she had been at the bottom of the abyss and she had slowly crawled her way back to a place where she is now emotionally safe. It really hurt me to hear say this and realise that I had been oblivious to this whilst it was happening - and I'm the one person whom she should have been able to count on to share these feelings.

The problem is that I feel we are still able to have one more child, and IVF treatment is still viable for us given our age and previous history, and her recent egg reserve tests results which, whilst only a snapshot, were still exemplary.

We have talked about this a few times recently and every time we talk about this I get opposite feelings. On one hand I get very depressed and sad, and frantic, hearing that she doesn't want to go through IVF and that she feels her time for bearing children is almost up as I still feel that the IVF option is there for us. On the other hand, when she says some of the reasons for this, I start to understand her feelings. Her fears are that IVF is a very physically and emotionally demanding procedure with only a low chance of success (just over 37.5yrs, with a first child already). Even after 2 or 3 rounds, there might not be any good news, and at that point, she would probably feel great resentment at having gone through the painful and emotionally wrenching process for nothing. Her question is, if after she's gone through all of that, how would she be able to pick up the pieces at that point? I don't have an answer to that. I know that I would be there for her, and if she were to go for IVF I will make sure I understand all the logistical issues and timing for injections and tests etc., and obviously make things as easy for her as possible at home and try to understand more of her emotional side of things, but if at the end of IVF there is no success (esp as we have been advised previously that my wife should only have a single egg implant as she had severe hyperemesis during our first natural pregnancy, and would be unable to cope with the hyperemesis resulting from twins), then what then? I have been thinking about this but feel that nothing I can say will be an adequate reply to this. I am starting to realise that the mother herself has to steel herself and be ready to deal with the consequences. Maybe earlier on in our TTC #2 my wife felt she was strong enough to deal with this, but maybe now, particularly as she feels she may have more to lose (see below), she feels differently. It may have been only a couple of months ago that she was feeling differently about IVF, but in terms of where she is on her thinking, it is an age ago. I am so sad to hear this. Everytime she tells me matter of factly that this is where her thinking is at, I start getting teary eyed and on the verge of losing it. It just means so much to me, but then again I'm sure it meant a lot more to her previously.

From my simplistic male perspective I would have said that if we're unsuccessful with IVF then we know that we have really tried everything and that there is nothing more we can do, and I'd be more at peace with things then if we didn't have another one. Her reply is, quite rightly, that it doesn't redress how she should feel having gone through all that for nothing. My wife fears that if it is unsuccesful, there may be great bitterness and resentment towards me. She may end up feeling different about me, and maybe about our marriage. I don't know how likely this will be, but I do know that whilst on the IVF drugs, her mood will be greatly affected and likely to go a little mad, from what I've read. I can also understand that, no matter what she may try to feel otherwise, there will be resentment that she is having to go through IVF because of a deficiency on my side. Even if we are successful with IVF there might still be this resentment.

I do desperately want another child, but I don't want it if there is a risk to our marriage. Without our marriage being strong, nothing would matter and it would put everything that I've always wanted for my, and my family's, future at risk.

My wife also fears that if on IVF, she will be unavailable for our daughter (due to the physical/emotional toll and the drugs) and would she feel guilty for not being there for her? On one hand I think that this may only last for the time whilst we're doing the IVF protocol and I will make sure that our little girl is taken care of perfectly during this time, and in return you might get another child for your family, but I also realise that you cannot replace lost time with your child if you're not there for them completely - and this doesn't address any feelings of guilt she may have.

She also fears that there may be long term effects from the IVF drugs, and increased risk of cancer, and maybe mess up her body's natural cycle.

Also, I now understand what my wife had in mind when she was asking me, during the first year of trying by ourselves, what our plan was. With hindsight it is clear - we try by ourselves for a period of time, and give us the best chances of this by exercise, supplements, diet etc. Then we move on to assisted routes, IUI, and then consider IVF after deciding how much we really wanted another one. These are the only options out there, really, if nothing else needs investigating, but it needed me to help her set a timeline for these, rather than just saying that "relax, it'll happen soon" or "it only takes one good sperm" etc. Things which I'm ashamed to have said rather flippantly in hindsight, and whilst not having done everything I could to improve my own side of the bargain.

Although she hasn't said so, I also think that maybe on my wife's side there is the feeling that she wants to be in control of when she decided to stop. Maybe she feels that it is better to still be in control of things (i.e. with her good blood test results and whilst she is still in child bearing age) and deciding to stop on her own terms, rather than having a negative test result after IVF and then realising that we'd come to the end of the road. I think that would be hard for her to deal with, and I can understand why. From my perspective I would want to try all options even if we still come up short, but then I am not the one who has to bear all the injections and the emotional burden.

My wife has said that if we only end up with the one child we have, she'd be ok with that now. I know that for a long time it wasn't that way. This is difficult for me to accept as I still so much want the second one. I think she has come to her own decision that the risks now outweigh the benefits, and I have to respect that but I still desperately hope she will change her mind.

So, a lot of emotions and difficult for me to make sense of all of it. On the one hand I want nothing more than to have another child with my wife - my wife reckons it is because I love my existing daughter so much that my yearning for another one has only increased - yet on the other hand if we continue on by ourselves, and if my SA results don't improve, we likely won't end up having another one without IVF which she is against and which i'm also a little unsure due to the risks to us and her. As she says, she doesn't want another child at the expense of all else.

I love my wife dearly and I don't want to raise the subject of IVF too often as it is difficult for us to discuss this - my wife doesn't want to go back over the edge to the bottom of the emtional abyss - but I can think of nothing else these days. It seems that we have been out of sync in our timing and thinking. I think we have more time, and can prepare for one more push with IVF, whilst my wife now feels it is her sunset. I can't help but think that had I been there more for her during her figuring all this out by herself, she would now still be wanting the second one more and more willing to try IVF, and that is very difficult for me to accept.

We are stlll trying naturally, and for now my wife is still supportive of our efforts, but I feel that soon she will stop even wanting to try again. I can't bear to think of this, and what this will mean, and I have a very heavy heart even as I type this.

i hope we have good news soon. Best of luck to all of you out there in the same situation.

OP posts:
beardpapa · 11/10/2011 23:39

Biscuitsandtea: apologies for forgetting my manners - I had completely forgotten to congratulate you on your pregnancy. I am really, really so happy for you and hope you have a safe and smooth pregnancy.

OP posts:
piprabbit · 11/10/2011 23:57

I'm so sorry that you are still trying without success, and that you and your wife seem to be in such different places.

FWIW it does sounds as thought you could both do with some sort of external counselling to help you come to some sort of agreement on how to progress. But you and she need to make the decision about IVF sooner rather than later.

I got pregnant with my second DC via IVF when I was 37. First cycle and TBH I didn't find the process of IVF stressful at all at the time, largely due to the support of the clinic and my DH. Unfortunately the side effects of being over-stimulated did make the first weeks of my pregnancy hard than I anticipated.

When I was researching (about 5 years ago) the chance of a woman of my age getting pregnant via IVF was a little over 30%. I see from my clinic's website that the outcomes have continued to improve and they are now quoting figures of over 44% for women under 38.

The fact that you already have a child is probably going to work in your favour when it comes to IVF (that's what we were told by doctors).

I really don't want to sound like I'm recommending you go the IVF route, it isn't the answer for everyone (or even most people). It is possible that in her attempts to get back to a stable, safe place your DW has wanted to avoid finding out about the details of IVF (finding it too painful to consider).

It is possible to get referred and attend an initial consultation at your chosen clinic, without any pressure to continue any further - although it would allow them to give you both personal feedback on the type of protocol they would recommend and the possible impact on you. However your DW may prefer not to explore this option.

Sorry - just waffling now - can't really say anything to help. It is such a hugely personal, stressful and sad choice to make when deciding how to respond to secondary infertility.

beardpapa · 08/11/2011 14:35

piprabbit: the thing is, even if we ever did decide to go for IVF our RE would only ever do a single egg transfer. My wife had such bad hyperemesis during her first pregnancy (she was hospitalised several times due to severe dehydration from not being able to eat or drink anything, even water) that our RE really fears for the health of mother and children if we ended up with a multiple pregnancy. Which means a single egg transfer and the chances of this succeeding are something like 17% for fresh embryo transfer, given our ages (she's just over 37.5 and I'm just over 36 now).

On the one hand I'm thinking 17% chance is pretty low for all the pain and physical/emotional trauma that IVF will guarantee. I'm not sure I would want my wife to go through that for these odds.

On the other hand, a part of me also thinks that 17% it is still an appreciably better chance of successfully getting pregnant than just us trying by ourselves... and time isn't on our side.

I'm quite torn. What I do know is that I can't stop thinking about having a second one - something has really switched inside.

OP posts:
eurochick · 08/11/2011 15:35

I think most clinics do a single embryo transfer these days so I wouldn't have thought that the success rate would drop from an overall average of 44% to 17% if only single embryo transfers are considered as that is the norm.

Keziahhopes · 10/11/2011 16:02

Hi - my DH had similar results to you, 7 years of trying, 1 failed ICSI cycle (need ICSI due to male infertility factors) etc and we conceived naturally (aged 36). Things we did different:

  • dh took 1000mg (think that was the unit - one tablet/capsule anyway) of vitamin C a day to improve motility etc
  • on advice of Care fertility clinic he took Menevit tablets (multi-vit etc, with garlic, lycopeine etc - if you search on internet for ingredients you can see what he took). Had to order from abroad, £45 for 3 months, or buy lots of different separate supplements in this country. After 6 months his SA restest was dramatically different.
  • we had Level 1 and Level 2 immune tests done (your diagnosis of infertility may not be down to just you, as immune issues for women often only occur after birth of first child). Experts in these tests in UK are Dr George Ndukwe (look up Zita West clinic, London where he recently moved to), Lister Clinic London, Dr Gorgy (London). Costs for tests are about £2,000 and treatment can be alongside IVF or sometimes to support natural ttc, depending on issues raised. Gp's may do many of level 1 tests for you.
  • as result of level 1+2 tests it was discovered I had issues such as thrombophilia, raised NK levels, TH1 level too high etc. Sorted with aspirin, injections, 3 iv intralipid infusion (no hassle at all, nurse came to house for them!), steroids for 8 weeks etc. So we found it wasn't just male issues at all.

good luck in whatever you decide to do.

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