19 month old blacked out after banging her head. Advice PLEASE!

[HoneyNutLoop]

Please help!
My 19 month old daughter banged her head this evening, just your typical childhood injury, running around with her big bro, legs went too fast, bang on the floor...
I didn't see exactly what happened but she had a red mark on her left temple so there was obviously a head injury, after the injury I picked her up from the floor and comforted her, she was crying a little, then she went floppy, her eyes glazed and went upwards a bit, her breathing slowed or stopped, then after a few seconds she started crying again...she was pale and clammy, and not quite herself for about 10 mins or so (I'm guessing, felt like forever)...
I took her to A&E and was dismissed with the usual head injury stuff by a harrassed and busy house officer, who told me to take her to GP tomorrow to get referral to consultant for further invetigations...in his defence she was fine by this point, running around, playing, good colour.
This is not the first time this has happened, it's the 3rd. The first she was very small, she was crying alot, stopped went floppy, then cried somemore, I wasnt sure if anything had happed, and MIL who was dr who was there said probably from crying. The second was with my husband, again, crying alot, few seconds, he said she winded herself and was just holding her breath with the crying, FIL - surgeon said fine, normal...
This time it was more defined, she was more in control, not screaming, the floppyness came before the eyes and breathing...
I'm worried sick, feel fobbed off by A&E, and was hoping that there may be a insomniac neurologist or someone with similar experience in their kid's (not that I'm wishing this on anyone else - but you know what I mean!), or a mum in the know, who may be able to offer constructive advice...

I would write down now as much as you can remember about the exact circumstances of each blackout. It will be useful to the doctors. With my dd the Children's Hospital monitored her for a year - I took her about every 3 months in that time with a list of when she'd fainted and under what circumstances. She was averaging out at twice a week at that point. Now it is much less frequent and she has been discharged, but they say to bring her back if she starts doing it for no obvious reason.
Your dd is coming up to the age when I found it was most frequent. I think children can get so frustrated around 18 months to 2, as they find it difficult to express themselves. This frustration was definitely a contributing factor of some of my dd's "episodes".

TSC - our dd's are pretty much the same age I think. DD2 will be 3 in August. Hopefully we've both seen the last of it!

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thesecondcoming...good luck

An update...we went to the GP this morning, got a referral to a peaditricain, it will take a month or so . The GP was ok, not as thorough as I'd have liked, discussed patient history but no family history...I asked her what she was thinking and she mentioned epilepsy...I asked what about RAS, she siad what about ebola! Great answer thanks! Considering she was thinking epilepsy she didn't ask if I had noticed any other signs...I told her about the 'episodes' and that was it! She offered no advice on what to do if it happens again, feel a bit deflated, very worried and all moving slower than I would like, but guess that is to be expected. At least the referral is in process!

To be fair, the main point of the GP consultation was for her to establish that your DD needed a referral and make the referral, rather than diagnose your DD herself. The ebola comment was uncalled for, though; if you do wind up with a RAS diagnosis I would be sorely tempted to go back and wave it under her nose...

True Prof. the main point was the referral, I had no expectation of a diagnosis and wouldn't have trusted one had it been offered, and under normal circumstances I'd be fine with that, I just feel so bloody useless and want to do something for DD. We knew she needed a referral after A&E on thursday night, the Dr we saw said so and it was in the report he sent to the GP, they knew that on friday, they told me...it's just that frustrated feeling of wanting somebody to do something yesterday and nothing happening fast enough...
In those terms, was it really worthwhile wasting time and resources seeing my daughter to write a referral that had already been established as necessary? Just write the referral and lets get things moving! I'm not cross with the GP, I just feel bloody useless. I'm scared it will happen again, and not knowing the cause, means I don't know how to handle it or what the possible implications may be...
I will resist the urge to wave any diagnosis under her nose, although it could be quite funny. Was quite tempted to do the oh my god you think it's Ebola....close the surgery, quarantine, covering my mouth whilst ranting hysterically routine...but didn't!

HoneyNutLoop - it would have been great if you'd done that!

Sorry the GP was a bit off-hand, but at least you now have got the referral. If she does it again in the meantime and you are worried take her straight back to the GP or hospital. To be honest though, I would try not to worry too much and just note exactly what happens. If you happen to have a video camera handy, so much the better. (I missed it every time with my dd though!)

They were concerned about epilepsy with my dd too, although they have now definitely ruled that out. Her eyes glazed over too, and kind of looked upwards a bit, but they didn't roll right back. Also when she is "out" is she rigid or floppy? Rigid is more of a sign of epilepsy, floppy isn't. We had no limb twitching either, although this in its own is not a definite epilepsy pointer. Also because there was always an emotional trigger, whether anger or pain, then that ruled out epilepsy for my dd too. I'm trying to put your mind at rest and prepare you for the likelihood of it just being something she does and that she'll outgrow it! If the doctor was worried your appointment would be sooner, I'm sure....

Thanks Runoutofideas...I'm pretty convinced it is RAS, her 'turns' sound a lot like those of your DD, my DD's eyes didnt go right back either, and she was floppy not rigid, no limb movements, she just kind of slumped.

My husband has spoken to his family today, to get more history, I was concerned as he had always told me that his paternal grandfather died of a sudden heart attack in his 30's...it seems his death was asthma related. No strong history of heart or neurological disease on that side, although it did come to light that DH had a couple of turns as a youngster too...they were put down to febrile convulsions, although when he did have a temp at the time of an attack it was low grade, so that was always a diagnosis that was disregarded, he grew out of it, although he did have a lot of dizzy spells in his teenage years, that was related to the condition he has that causes deafness in one ear (I was serious when I said that his dr parents failed to notice, or take him seriously on that for a couple of years LOL)

I'm hoping that this is something that will not happen again, but I am realistic, I appreciate the reassurances, and I'm almost scared to say this...but I think you are right

My dd has it writen in her hospital notes that the episodes are in part due to her "general feisty nature"....!

The low blood pressure thing can also cause the eyes to move slightly, apparently, but not in the same way as during an epileptic fit. My dd had her heart checked too, but all appeared to be fine.

Hope you don't see it again HoneyNL!

Me too and you too Runoutofideas!
"general feisty nature"! I love it! My DD is a strong willed, stubborn, opinionated little diva, she likes expects to get her own way, and does not stop until she does...today she was attempting to pull her 4 year old brother out of her push chair by his hair, when that didn't work she bit and slapped him, before screaming at me for stopping her!
Confession time: Yesterday she decided that my dinner looked more appealing than hers (exactly the same food - served at the table in front of her very eyes) and screamed, trying to grab my fork and plate, for 20 minutes until she turned the colour of a beetroot, and her eyes started to look a little glazed, and hrm I caved and sat her on my knee and fed her my brocolli , yes I know I was wrong, and yes I know I should have stood strong, and yes I know I whimped out and got scared, and am fueling the fire, and the better ones amongst you wouldn't have caved, and if she had of passed out at least it would have helped diagnosis...but I couldn't! She threw a blinking tantrum over brocolli!
Anyway, back to the point! I wrote to STARS yesterday, seeing if they can recommend a consultant, and they wrote back today saying they will contact ASAP with names in my area...I was so impressed with their support...and I feel a little better in the sense that I am doing something....not alot but something. Also spoke to BF tonight, she was a GP, though has now changed speciality, and she in the way only she can, has helped me get things in check...so fingers crossed for us all that our little feisty and arsey divas behave themselves!

HNL - at your GP for the ebola comment but glad you have the referral. Perhaps she didn't know what RAS was?

Re giving in over the screaming fit - you did what you felt was in your DD's best interest at the time, that is a good thing. My DS could never be left to cry when he was tiny, because he had a hernia and crying made it bulge horribly, until he was mended at 8wo. But he also gets hideously hot and sweaty when he cries, so if he wasn't really thirsty before he started, he sure was after 10 mins or so screaming! No controlled crying in this house.

Now he does the "can't catch my breath" silent screaming until his lips go blue-grey - he's getting better though, now I just calmly tell him to breathe, breathe and he does. BUt he's always highly distressed afterwards (presumably cos it's scary!)

Some would say I pander to him, but I would rather minimise his distress, even if it starts as a tantrum, as it ends up being scary for both of us.

HTH

Glad you got the referral, HoneyNut, and that your daughter's doing okay.

Mine is completely recovered, thank you for asking - terrifying week in hospital though it was, she didn't have any brain bleeding so no lasting effects.

Naaa thumbitch, I wouldn't say you pander, I'd say you look after him...isn't that a mum's job?! I was the same with my ds, dd is a bit different, maybe it's because she's the second or maybe it's because she's a stubborn little diva and always has been ...I try not to respond to tantrums, but when they switch from tantrums to distress I just can't do it, I particularly can't do it when she did what she did on thursday! My husband calls me a softy and a tree hugging hippy...but hey, who cares thanks for the support
Tortoise...I'm so happy that your dd is well, that's fab news.
Thank you all for the support, you ladies have all really helped keep me sane in this... x

Hi HNL, Just wanted to say I'm glad your gp referred. My ds is 2.5 and we've had a lot of outward breathholds and its scary. For quite a while I was seriously torn with disipline, if I tried to disipline I risked him breathholding and I have had to ressusitate him to get him started again.

I now have a compromise, the rules are still the rules and if he kicks off I sit him on my lap and ignore him, unfortunatly my ds was going "out" for so long I was told he could risk brain damage and I was given a resuss immediatley order from the hospital. I know its sounding as tho its probably ras and not a breath hold thing, but its still good to think up coping teqhniques, so that you don't find yourself panicking.

Even if its a plan of what to do next time

Maybe..

Pick up child
lay on rug
look at clock
check pulse

Hope the above hasn't caused you more stress

If you speak to your heath visitor they may be able to get you onto a ressus course, which although you will probably never need will make you feel a bit more in control.

Thinking of you.