your view on vaccinations?

[ranirani]

your view on vaccinations ? what are those? any prons and cons?

Sunshine my family had no history of vaccines causing problems until my daughter's health was destroyed.

Like pagwatch I am not anti-vaccine. Describing people as anti-vaccine is like describing people who campaign for safer roads as anti-car.

The incidence of autism has increased, but how much of that is down to better diagnosis? In the past someone with severe autism might have just been locked up in an insitution or labelled as the village idiot rather than being deemed worth the attention of a consultant paediatrian.

Also lots of things have changed in our lives. We are less active and eat more processed foood during pregnancy. Families are less close and there is more stress which might awake dormant autisic tenancies.

I think that people are unreasonable to think that anything is 100% risk free. You are taking a risk whether you opt for a vacination or not.

Who thinks either choice is risk free?

I certainly don't.
And I don't believe that ASD has gone from 1 in 10,000 in the 80's to 1 in 100 now through better diagnosis. But neither do I think it is all vaccination.
But to try an pin what is an epedemic of ASD on better diagnosis strikes me as the Medical Profession trying to piss on me and then tell me its raining

There was a study in Sweden: a hunt for misdiagnosed adults with autism who were hidden away in institutions. They found two possibles.

It's not really better diagnosis. From one in ten thousand to one in 150? Why would we suddenly get all interested in diagnosing autism all of a sudden? What on earth would have triggered that?

Yes a lot of things have changed. But then, you know, Occam's Razor. If you are wondering what might have caused an increase in autism diagnoses, and thousands of people say it happened after vaccination, why would you decide: oh no, it's not that. Can't possibly be that. Without even looking at the children who were apparently damaged?

Pag you have a shocking fantastic way with words

I hate that better diagnosis thing. It's such tosh. Sorry RT but I hate it so much.

ah Stuffit. If only that were true.
I do pack well though and make excellent Rocky Road

Why is this thread in Childbirth topic?

I don't believe close famillies for a minute impact on asd RT! Ho bizarre- coming from the closest (if recently distance separated) family I know.

DX yes as a factor but not close famillies- ????

I just have to say I'm very impressed with the reasoned tone of this thread. I do vaccinate, but given some of the views aired here, I can certainly understand why people would choose not to.

My son has cerebral palsy (birth trauma) and had I known that, I may have chosen a c-section instead of natural birth, despite the risks it entailed. As parents we have to make difficult decisions on risk every day, and I deplore any profession or institution that does not release adequate information to help us make these choices.

Can I ask a genuine question of those who have obviously researched and support the hypothesis of the link between autism and MMR (in particular sub-groups of children). Is there any research as to whether contracting measles (or indeed mumps or rubella) can also be a trigger for autism in susceptible children? Sorry if this has been done to death in previous threads.

I can't link it now (and possibly not ever) but there is supposed to be a connection between contracting mumps and measles in the same year and a diagnosis of autism.

I've heard this given as a reason for putting the vaccines together in the MMR. It didn't make sense to me then and doesn't now.

this talks about the link between wild infection and IBD and ulcerative colitis

gut issues have been closely linked to vaccine damage and autism diagnoses

it is buried.. about half way down! it's a long read

my lot have had everything going...100% vaccine supporter

Still interested, have read the thread.

As far as I can see here (and from reading some of the very sensible MN posts on this over the years), the main focus is on a sub-group thought to be susceptible to gut damage / via gut damage (not sure about which way round that should go) to something that is in vaccines. (Is that why epidemiological research is not seen as strong evidence, BTW?) Plus an additional concern over >1 vaccine at a time being in some way too much for the body to cope with.

Is that right, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

As I said, genuinely interested. Is difficult when you are part of the system (and have been sucessful within it - I trained as an epidemiologist) to step outside and look at the stuff that you are expected to 'know' is rubbish.

My son hasn't had any vaccinations and I don't plan to give him any.

Improved diagnosis and changes in diagnostic criteria cannot explain the concerning increase in autism incidence. Even the government admits this now. There has been (yet another) study in the US which shows this recently. Anyway to suggest that parents wouldn't notice that their child was autistic or wouldn't notice their child regressing is utterly ridiculous and to my mind quite offensive.

Yes there is stuff on how a viral infection can cause autism. Congenital rubella syndrome is well documented in having this effect. There is a mumsnetter whose child regressed following a viral infection. She has said on previous threads how she notices that the docs are perfectly willing to accept her anecdotal account of her son's regression whilst denying the same has happened to children she knows who regressed after vaccination (with live viruses).

I absolutely do not buy the story that whilst vaccinations can induce immunity (just like natural infection) they cannot also do damage (just like natural infection). That just ain't logical or scientific.

We know that wild measles can do damage to the gut but we are unwilling to accept that measles vaccination (with a live virus) can do the same. Sorry but that just sounds like utter bullshit to me.

Dr Wakefield got into all this because he was researching links between measles infection and gut problems like Crohn's disease. It is no coincidence that a gastroenterologist researching viruses and bowel disease ended up looking at autistic bowel disease and vaccine strain viruses. Just as it is no coincidence that thousands of kids have developed gut problems after vaccination with viruses known for their ability to damage the gut.

This whole story began way before Dr Wakefield but let's go back and look at the report that led to this issue entering the public eye.

the now famous although it would seem not actually very widely read 1998 Lancet paper

Quote from the paper;

"In some cases the onset and course of behavioural regression was precipitous, with children losing all communication skills over a few weeks to months. This regression is consistent with a disintegrative psychosis (Heller?s disease), which typically occurs when normally developing children show striking behaviour changes and developmental regression, commonly in association with some loss of coordination and bowel or bladder function. Disintegrative psychosis is typically described as occurring in children after at least 2?3 years of apparently normal development. Disintegrative psychosis is recognised as a sequel to measles encephalitis, although in most cases no cause is ever identified. Viral encephalitis can give rise to autistic disorders, particularly when it occurs early in life. Rubella virus is associated with autism and the combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (rather than monovalent measles vaccine) has also been implicated. Fudenberg noted that for 15 of 20 autistic children, the first symptoms developed within a week of vaccination. Gupta commented on the striking association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and the onset of behavioural symptoms in all the children that he had investigated for regressive autism. Measles virus and measles vaccination have both been implicated as riskfactors for Crohn?s disease and persistent measles vaccine-strain virus infection has been found in children with autoimmune hepatitis."

So it would appear that we are being expected to believe that measles and rubella wild viruses can cause gut disease and autistic regression but that vaccination with the same viruses cannot (ever). All this against a background of thousands of parents bearing witness the the fact that their child regressed after vaccination. And the governments explanation for all this is as follows;

"we don't know what autism is, we don't know what causes it, however through an impressive act of doublethink we can categorically assure you that we know vaccines have got nothing to do with it. It's all just a coincidence (and can we stop talking about it now and just ignore the children so that maybe this whole sorry mess will just go away)".

Right.

Anyway all this is immaterial because children have been compensated in the US for developing autism after vaccination so the cat is well and truly let out of the bag. The UK government is still dragging its feet because it is owned by the industry.

There are many 'problems' with the belief that vaccines actually work...
-developing antibodies due to vaccination does not guarantee immunity, and what level of antibody count should you take as sufficient to 'protect'? This is all guesswork... nobody offers their child up for infection to see if the vaccine works
-there are few epidemics thankfully (at least in the UK) of the diseases that are vaccinated for (and that's nothing to do with the mythical notion herd immunity) so the efficacy of said vaccines can't genuinely be established
-there is no such thing as herd immunity as per above; there are few outbreaks circulating so there is no definite test of the vaccine and therefore no proof of herd immunity
-££££ earned by drug companies means they all want to win the lucrative govt contract for vaccines... they are real bankers for these companies and when there is so much money at stake it's amazing what can be shown by statistics!
-it's too late to go back now... once a campaign has started the liability is too large for a govt to backtrack and admit errors or lack of proper trials or testing
-media is controlled very well by the govt so there are regular reports of dangerous and imminent epidemics... which haven't materialised... just to keep fear levels up

It's a tough world and the vaccine debate is one of the tough decisions. My son is not vaccinated at 15 months and of course I'd be devastated if he was damaged by a childhood illness whether he was vaccinated or not.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the cases in states where it was made illegal NOT to have the MMR - will the children who suffered vaccine damage in those states be able to sue for compensation? Or is it some kind of class action thing, or a standard compensation payout now that precedence has been set? (am not very clear on litigation).

kjl - your last bullet point on the media hype for imminent epidemics is so true - look at all the bollocks that was written about bird flu - "come and get your Tamiflu vaccine here and put more money into DOnald Rumsfeld's pocket!" Despite the fact that the H5N1 strain had become resistant to Tamiflu due to Chinese chicken farmers using it on their chickens in subtherapeutic doses, thus allowing the virus to become resistant to it!!

Asperger syndrome, which is a common form of autism, wasn't officially a diagnostic label until 1994 so they had no way to identify those individuals before then anyway (me being one of them).

Society had a more rigid structure, better rules. Classrooms were expected to be quiet, orderly, in rows rather than facing each other, with ordinary overhead lights and no computer screens. A child with an ASD could just about survive in those strict, rule-based circumstances.

Put us in a classroom in continually changing mixed groups with fluorescent overhead lighting, flickering computer screens, constant background noise from the others chatting about their work, eye contact from the way the desks are designed, greater expectation of interaction, and you've created the ideal way to identify who we are, because we can't cope with it and it pushes us into shutdown/meltdown. Same with the ultra-super-marketing techniques used in supermarkets, which have turned them from just-about-survivable to hell-on-earth for those with sensory sensitivities.

To a large extent, we were always there. But no-one realised it. To the kids at school, we were the geeky socially inept clumsy kid you beat up behind the bike sheds every break time. To the teachers, we were the people who "needed to learn to stand up for ourselves". It's why so many of those adults that were never diagnosed early on have ended up in such a bad way.

And that was before the MMR.

I have no idea about the MMR. But there are other reasons for the increase in diagnosis.

Amber you make some interesting points but the fact is that research has clearly shown that there is a real increase in ASD which cannot be accounted for by diagnostic terms or criteria changes. The recent US Davis' MIND Institute study is yet another confirmation of this.

Particularly concerning is the evidence that many of these children have severe and painful gut issues that affect their behaviour, cause them immense suffering and lead to malabsoption and nutrional defeciencies. These children are low functioning autistics and often non verbal. There is no way that these children could cope in mainstream schools. There is no way that these children would not be noticed.

I am not saying that in the past high functioning autistic children and adults or people with Asperger's did not go undiagnosed because this most probably did happen due to a lack of awareness.

Actually, I have thought for a long time that we need to stop using the term autistic to describe these children. I think we need to make a very clear definition between classical autism and regressive autism. Perhaps we could just be honest and call regressive autism environmental damage and stop trying to hide it under another name.

Beachcomber there#s one massive problem with your idea of calling regressivev children aby a different label- support.

The only emotional RL supportwe get is via the NAS.

We would lose that, and the NAS would lose a lot of the mass size power it currently ahs.

It's like the AQS/ HFA thing- there's a netter ho firmly beleives they shouldnt be in the NAS and some of her point make sense to me but separating the two would lead to a whole sector without support.

Having children who show the symptoms together, whether after regression or not and whether with language skills or not means there is a wider group for campaigning and more ability to shout. Also there are more similarities in terms of whole life needs- so it's easier yto get info, support groups, etc.

The same reason as why my ex employers, Mcmillan, are absorbing smaller charities by the minute: size in the sector is power.

Besifdes, there's no real differencre between ds3 and a child who didn't regress, yet massive difference between ds1 and an 'avergae' AS kid: the blanket approach achieved by use of the diagnostic term ASD and the triad of imapirments makles for inclusion of childdren on the ends of their diagnosis iyswim.

Sorry for typo- babs on lap asleep

Very true Peachy what you say about support, and there is little enough as it is.

The more I read, the more I'm convinced that environmental factors (some pre-natal) play a major role in autism full stop.

Perhaps we should stick with autism then but stop pretending that it is genetic only.

Problem with the blanket term autism or ASD/PDD to my mind is that it neither covers the gut/nutritional issues than many children have nor leaves room for making clear when the condition has been triggered by an environmental insult such as a vaccine. Although I guess these concepts are gradually becoming more linked to autism in the public mind.

I know of people who have found it difficult to get treatment for their child's gut issues as the 'label' autistic is not helpful in this domain. Some doctors are afraid to help and end up hauled up before the GMC and some seem to think that the gut issues don't really exist in their own right but are down to 'fussy eating' due to the sensitory aspects of autism.

I agree that it is important to ensure inclusion of children at both ends of the spectrum.

I suppose the confusion over naming the condition would stop in the government would just admit that vaccine induced autism does exist just as viral induced autism exists.

If DSM V goes to plan, at least they'll stop the AS/autism labelling and just call it all autism but then subdivide it into low, medium and high functioning. At present, the only diagnostic difference between autism and AS is the age at which a member of the family first heard us speak (if indeed we ever did), but people tend to automatically assume that autism = severe and AS = mild. It can vary hugely.

Yes, there's tons of research to be done on what causes the brain to rewire itself, and at what point.