9 yo will not sleep!

[CGH93]

My just turned 9 year old son, struggles to fall asleep at a reasonable time!

we have a well establish bedtime routine which starts around 7pm. (No TV after 4.30pm)
Magnesium gummies, shower, reading in a calmly list room, then lights out at 8pm.

He’s still always wide awake till 9.30pm onwards every night!
He’s not up and down but I can always hear him moving about in bed, unsettled.

is this ‘normal’ or is there anything that’s worked to help him fall asleep earlier?

this poor sleeping habit is affecting his mood as he’s ratty.

thank you 🤍

If you can hear him moving, are you accidentally disturbing him while you're still downstairs?

I don’t think 9:30 is unreasonably late.

Maybe he’s bored and not doing enough at home? What does he do after school? 9:30 isn’t that late for an 8 year old.

My DD just turned 9 and falls asleep between 9-9.30 but also wakes naturally at 7-7.30 and isn't tired.
If you think he needs to sleep longer would you consider either having him shower in the AM or earlier in evening if possible? Showering wakes me up.
Also have you noticed any difference with the gummies? Many, but not all, seem to be mostly sugar. And others don't have nearly enough to make a difference (I've been researching for migraines rather than sleep, so havent retained the numbers for sleep, but remember being surprised at the range of doses available under same claims)

Depends what time he gets up. If it’s after 7.30am then 10 hours would be pretty typical I think.

My 8&9 yo go to bed at 8:30 and are allowed to read for 45 mins. Lights out around 9:15-9:30. They’re up for school the next day.

I think 8pm is clearly too early for him if he’s still awake forn90 mins. Let him stay up later

I wish it was the case. We often sit and read downstairs once the kids are in bed, trying to keep noise to a minimum to see if that’s what’s causing the late nights but doesn’t seem too make a difference

He doesn’t stop, he’s either at clubs, out playing with friends, in the garden, playing with Lego, drawing, dancing.. he’s not device kinda kid so nothing like that.

its the fact that he’s asleep late but then is always up at 5am.

my sons always up at 5am, which is why I feel like 9.30pm is too late.

yeah good idea about trying to shower in a morning instead! I’ll trial that.

yeah I agree, I think it’s a placebo effect really

I forgot to mention in my post, he’s always awake around 5am

Why is he awake at 5am? That's surely more of an issue than not going to sleep until 9.30.

Yeah. Msybe so.

it hard to know as he’s always up from around 5am

Just his natural body clock, always has been. We’re all fairly early risers.

Is he tired during the day? If not, he's probably getting as much sleep as his body needs and it's hard to force a longer sleep.

what time he wakes up in the morning

my child sleep 9 to 7:30-7:40
I put him to bed 8:40
I moved dinner to 7pm
and after school he has small snack
because if they hungry they cannot sleep

Yes, he’s tired during the day. Come mid afternoon he’s flagging and then that’s when we notice a decrease in behaviour.

He’s usually up and awake by 5am, he’s always been an early riser. So now that he’s not sleeping till late - it’s making him grumpy come tea time

Have you ever looked at advanced sleep phase syndrome?

Basically your natural melatonin peaks much earlier than other peoples, but if you can't get to sleep at that exact moment, you become wired and overstimulated because the natural melatonin peak has passed.

It's common to wake up early with advanced sleep phase syndrome too.

Can be diagnosed by the sleep clinic, usually needs blood tests and cortisol tests.

Thanks for this information, I’ll look into it!

Have you tried moving bedtime? And supper time?

try earlier and later times.

and always a bedtime snack.

moving bedtime helped us.

but now we use melatonin.

The treatment for it is often light therapy as a first line, using SAD lamp type lights, to activate the arousal stage of energy, keeping you awake and alert longer.

Sometimes, though I've found it's often reluctantly prescribed, melatonin, but not taken at bedtime, it's taken earlier on in the day.

ASPS is one of the things they looked into for myself, now just diagnosed with CFS, but my son has the opposite, he's got delayed sleep phase syndrome so nighttime melatonin works for him but it wouldn't necessarily work for someone with ASPS, because it doesn't reset your circadian rhythm it just supports and boosts the available melatonin in your body which naturally goes through cycles every 24 hours.

It's not that bad?? He can read/chill in his room, doesn't sound like he's up, leaping around??

No, he’s not. You’re right. But he’s then very very grump/angry come mid afternoon the next day and it’s really starting to affect his mood.

Can I recommend magnesium spray for kids
i spray at their bellybutton and feet and omg they sleep straight away. It has chemomile oil and other oil too to help sleep

My son takes forever to go to sleep unless he has melatonin. Usually takes max 45 minutes for him to sleep after that. Otherwise he is fidgeting and wriggling for about an hour and a half, and doesn't get enough sleep.