Toileting problems, no help, told its normal

[noitsachicken]

I am at the end of my tether with DS who is 4.9.
He has never got the hang of using the toilet and still has frequent accidents, poo and wee.
Sometimes he seems genuinely unaware, sometimes he knows. He will not go when asked, even if it is obvious he needs to go.
He says he doesn't like going to the toilet!
He is at school now and the other children are starting to notice.
We have tried so many things, he is not interested in rewards, he won't stick to it. School nurse has been useless, GP says they can't refer him until he is seven!
I am so fed up with it! We have a two year old can do it!
I don't know what to do, I try not to get cross with him, but when you can see him pooing in his pants, and insisting he doesn't need to go it's hard to stay calm.
No one will help, we are told its 'normal' this is not normal.
I don't know what to do.

PS Jelly tots are massively cheaper than lego!

Please don't worry - you're not failing him. My dcs are 2, 7 and just turned 10. 7&10 year old only remember snippets of stuff from being 4/5. In a year or so when things have settled down and seem a calmer routine, he'll just enjoy having two younger siblings and it will be the norm.

[possibly giving you false hope there, about the settled / calm bit - my house is neither still ]

Ooh My post appeared twice but with a couple of posts in between! No idea what happened there! Sorry.

noitsachicken this is exactly like my son, I could have written your post word for word. It is so hard and like you I can't help but get angry and frustrated and then feel horribly guilty that I am making everything worse. I've had the same advice, to be chilled and not make a big deal out of it but we've been at it for a year and a half and with school approaching I'm just becoming desperate. We've tried everything. Sorry I don't have any advice but you have my sympathy.

Does your ds suffer from constipation or has he at any point. My soon to be 5 yr old ds is exactly the same he was wetting and pooing all the time. He will also say he doesn't need to poo even when he's clearly sat holding it in. We took him to the doctors and he is now on laxatives for his constipation which has also helped his weeing. The doctor told us that with constipation it also effects the wee side of things. He has got loads better but still poos himself sometimes and it's due to his colon being weak from all the constipation and holding poo in. My ds is still in nappies at night the doctor said this is very common with children who have constipation.

I think you are being given bad advice. My daughter has been under the continence service since she was 2.5, I recommend seeing a different g.p. Have you talked to your Health visitor? They can sort out referrals, good luck, it's so hard isn't it dealing with continuing toiletting issues,

Thanks, it's been a tough week.
I often remind myself that they won't remember anything about this in a few years!
I don't think it's for attention, as it's been going on since before the baby arrived.
hadenough I am sorry you are going through this as well, I wish there was an easy answer, and I wish he wasn't at school so young either as I don't think that helps.
The doctor says he is not constipated, but I might take him again.

Who referred you queen?
Now he is at school we don't see the HV, and school nurse has been rubbish at getting back to us.
GP said there is a clinic, but only once they are seven.

I think we were referred by GP, my daughter is 5 now and still takes laxatives every day, but at least at long last she is pooing in the toilet. She still withholds whenever she can and continence nurse has told us she will be on the medication for at least a couple more years.

Poor you, op. it's really hard; i have 6 year old dd that sometimes doesn't get to the toilet in time & a 3.5 ds that sometimes poos his pants, when you're going through a phase when it's constant and you're constantly cleaning and your house smells of wee/poo it is genuinely like being tortured.
Could it be as simple as jealousy of extra care that the younger 2 require and the fact that they are home with you? How about moving focus away from toileting and start showing some advantages of being the eldest. Could you take him to the cinema just you & him & explain that the others are 2 little? Or he could have a half hour with you or dh each night while the younger 2 are getting to sleep (me & dh alternate bedtimes)

As I said I am no expert but I think it would be worth going back and pestering the HCPs. I would try the school nurse again (repeatedly if necessary), health visitor (you are still covered for your younger two and could say it is upsetting family dynamics which is true) and the GP / practice nurse (a different GP if necessary / possible). Plus contact ERIC.

As I said I am no expert but I think it would be worth going back and pestering the HCPs

Unfortunately, in many areas continence clinics simply refuse any referrals for children under 7. So 'pestering' the GP for referral won't help. But the HV or school nurse may have some useful ideas. TBH, though, it doesn't sound as if there is anything wrong that persistence - and possibly jelly tots - can't fix.

Ok fair enough with GP. I would have hoped for more (and got more with no pestering required) from my HV and school nurse.

As an aside (genuinely not goady I hope), I have had absolutely no luck with jelly tots or any kind of bribery with toilet training for both DC. DD1 just got there on her own in the end and DD2 still only poos in pull ups (but is only 4 so am hoping this will improve). Is there a magic way to do it as I have often thought I am doing it wrong?

He could be mortified but not being able to recognise the feeling so it comes across as not bothered.

Has he ever suffered from constipation as it could be he is still 'backed up' and knows it will hurt to go. When this happens they lose the ability to know that they need to go but some will leak out. Look up encropresis which I think is the word for it. He may have lost the sensation of needing to go.

My DC wasn't dry in the day until 3.5 and didn't stop pooing pants until a fortnight before starting school! Also wasn't dry at night until 6.

I highly recommend using one of the night time bed wetting alarms during the day. You can have it on siren, lights and vibrate at home and just on vibrate when you're out. Basically the siren is so loud (not loud enough to damage hearing) that they learn to avoid it.

www.amazon.co.uk/Chummie-Premium-Bedwetting-Alarm-Sleepers/dp/B00GAPD9YI

I forgot to add, I saw the consultant about toileting (we were under her care anyway) and she said there was absolutely nothing you could do ultimately, but the tips she gave were:

• start with regular toilet times. Put them on anyway even if you know they won't go.
• reward successes, ignore failures (never get cross)
• empower the child by making them responsible for choosing new pair of pants to put on

That was it!

Having frequent toileting accidents at 4 is not "normal" but I don't think it is that uncommon. My son is 6.5 now, was late to toilet train, and it has always been such a battle (especially poo, which just seems to be a really big deal for him). Rewards/bribes do not seem to work for him either.

Are you sure he is not constipated? Can you think of any reason he might be frightened of the toilet? I don't think that it is your fault at all: - my son is an only child and I have spent a lot of time working on this and he still struggles. Autumn term at school was particularly bad and over Christmas holidays he was almost completely incontinent (and like your son he says that he has no idea that he needs to go).

What seems to have really helped us has been getting him to sit on the toilet (and he needs to sit) for 5-10mins after every meal (ideally about 10 mins after the meal). Most of the rest of the time I back off and I don't nag him about going. If you are going to use a reward, I would give the reward just for going along with this rather than making it about success/failures. For the first few weeks, I went in and sat with him, but now he goes on his own. I don't think that my DS would have agreed to this aged 4 as he was massively resistant (and violent and big for his age), but he seems to understand much better now.

I think that childhood continence services vary massively between areas - we have never been offered anything, despite seeing all sorts of healthcare professionals (only seen the GP for the toileting, and she seemed pretty perplexed!).

Hope that helps.

Thanks for all the replies and support.
Lots to think about.