Lack of sleep making my child tearful and pale

[Notthinkingclearly]

Dd is 6 years old. Always been a terrible sleeper. I was so sleep deprived until she was 4. Now she goes to bed at around 7 and is happy and ready to go sleep. She is very restless during the night but i can never hear a snore. This morning she woke before 5. I took her to the loo and tried several times to settle her back down to sleep but she just can't. By breakfast time she is yawning and looking tired and is always tearful and today looked so pale. Just been to parents evening and teacher told me that she was worried about how tired and pale she looked today. It's begining to effect her school work too. Any suggestions. On the very rare time that she sleeps to 6:30 she is like a different child. Happy and looks refreshed. Any suggestions. I have mentioned to GP but didn't seem interested.

Have you tried waking her at an earlier time say 4am for a while, get her up for the loo. It may break her sleep cycle and help her sleep longer. It might just be s habit that needs breaking.

Ds1 was like this. I watched him sleeping and discovered he was having bouts of apnoea.

I had his tongue tie revised and after a couple months of braces and headgear (from age 7) for his high narrow palate and restricted airway, he started sleeping well for the first time since birth.

Orofacial structure is very important when it comes to good quality breathing and sleeping.

This may sound weird, but she may have ASMR. It's nothing bad it's just a sensory reaction to certain sounds etc. so it helps you become sleepy. There's videos of people making triggers. It helped search in 'GentleWhispering' on youtube and she has a good variety. Helped mine sleep, should help yours!

Mawbroon's post is important. I would certainly be ruling out medical reasons for this, snoring or not. An ENT assessment would be a good first port of call if you can press the GP on it a bit more.

Some children just aren't big on sleep but your DD sounds like she's struggling on the amount she's getting. It may well be nothing but I'd want to look into it further from the medical side before trying some other approaches as mentioned by PPs.

I think I would try putting her to bed early for a few nights is 6:15/6:30.

Thanks for all replies. She often does need a wee when she wakes so I think it would be good to try and break the cycle. She does have very large tonsil but Drs have always dismissed this. How easy is it to get a sleep study done? Would propping bed help in the mean time help if she has apnea? Interesting also that she was born tongue tied but was snipped at a week old.

With apnoea propping her up may help.

Not sure what things are like where you're based but here in Ireland (which is often similar to UK) the longest wait tends to be to see ENT/respiratory consultant in the first place. The sleep studies happen quite promptly once the consultant orders them.

Interesting to hear she had a tongue tie.

Unfortunately, many mainstream HCPs are clueless about ties and the far reaching effects they can have on overall health. Sorry, but it's true. You say she had it snipped at a week old, however many ties are not completely released, sometimes an anterior tie can be snipped but a difficult to diagnose posterior tie may be completely overlooked.

The tongue shapes the palate in the womb and if the swallow pattern is restricted, it can leave distortions in palate shape which can in turn affect facial development. Not that you would notice unless you knew what you were looking for, but this is what happened to DS1.

Have a look at your DD's palate. If it is high and narrow, you may have your answer, or at least part of it. There are pictures on my profile of DS before he had his orthodontics done. The high narrow palate distorts and narrows the openings into the airway which can cause apnoea.

Interesting you say about the large tonsils. I thought DS had massive tonsils, but actually they were normal. They just looked massive because his tongue was tied down at the back and you could see his tonsils in their entirety without using a tongue depressor. After he had his revision, the back of the tongue now sits much higher up and you can't see his tonsils at all.

Is your dd a mouth breather?

Thanks Mawbroon. That's really interesting. Can't seem to click on your profile but will try and look at my daughters palate. I did wonder if she had a posterior tongue tie as her speech was not very clear when younger but that seems to have improved. My GP always looks at me like a crazy person when I try and suggest something is wrong.

Hmm, something went a bit funny with my profile when the whole hacking thing was happening and I can't seem to get it back to showing as public.

If there's a problem with palate and facial structure, you need a dentist. But it needs to be a dentist who has specialised in tongue ties and understands the consequences that untreated ties can have on the orofacial structure. You also need one that will help now, not one that will wait until teens then pull a load of teeth and make the remaining ones straight.

I have no idea where you are based, but starting points might be Malcolm Levinkind in North London and John Roberts at Cote Royd Dental Practice in Huddersfield. I have had dealings with both and they are extremely knowledgeable.

Are there any other things going on with your DD? DS had multiple problems. The sleep/breathing ones as I've mentioned, but he also had congestion/noise/hearing loss with ears and reflux, which I didn't realise until he was 5yo. Allergies and intolerances are also common in tied kids. Gut issues can happen because if chewing is not triggering the correct muscle stimulation from the tongue, the whole system can be out of kilter. DS was mouth breathing, which lengthens the lower jaw and alters the whole face structure. He had a curve in his neck, possibly from holding his head at the optimal angle for breathing. This had a knock on effect on his hips, knees and ankles which were often sore and he was in the medical room at school every single day with bleeding knees from falling over all the time! Every single one of his problems disappeared after revision, orthodontics and a few sessions of osteopathy.

And yes, I was fobbed off by doctors left, right and centre.

Extremely stressful.

Something similar is happening with my DS. He had a tt snipped at 6 months but it wasn't done very well. Fast forward four years and we have just had a ent consult. DS is also tired and pale. The reason GP referred us was drooling. However I brought up his sleep and food issues and the consultant took them seriously. We are waiting on a swallow analysis to help decide on what to do next.
I suppose it depends on the severity and where you are but it took 12 months for the initial appointment

Hi sorry to hijack thread - same problems happening with my ds who is six. He has a tongue tie (been in contact with Malcolm levinkind for this) is mouth breathing, face elongating, posture getting worse causing knee and back problems and palate getting narrow causing sleep problems etc Mawbroon think I read somewhere that you found a good dentist for this kind of problem palate expansion etc in Edinburgh? We are based in glasgow . Would you be able to let me know who they are either on here or via pm? Would be forever grateful as finding it so upsetting to see ds getting sicker and more exhausted every day and his face getting longer and paler. Thanks !