Would you be OK with a GP doing this?

[confuddledDOTcom]

Had to take my 7yo daughter to the out of hours GP yesterday. Saw a doctor we always hope not to see (of all the places they can send you to, of all the doctors that you could possibly see... why do we always end up with this guy???) and he did the usual checks, asked to look in her mouth, then asked her to open wider she said no and closed her mouth. He said it was ok, he'd do without and checked her ears then without warning pushed a tongue depressor in her mouth. I've seen them do it to toddlers who don't understand "open wide", it makes them gag and open their mouths wide enough to see but I've never seen a GP do this to an older child who has refused them.

Did you call him on it at the time, so your dd could see there and then that you didn't agree with what he was doing. Although I know it's easy for me to say that in hindsight, when I'm not in shock or worried about my dd.

I agree it's worth complaining about this - because as you say, he didn't give you a chance to talk to your dd or even do it himself. Doing it without warning like this he could have hurt her much more badly than it would have done if you had at least been given a chance to make her understand why it was necessary and that it wouldn't last for too long.

I'm also hoping that your dd managed to bite his fingers as she clamped down to teach him the error of his ways but I suspect that is more than a little childish of me!

Hard, though, isn't it, zipzap, when you think "what might he do next if I complain?"

You really should make a complaint, confuddled. And frankly I would refuse to be treated by him again. Is he the only one on at the Out of Hours service if you happen to turn up during his shift?

If you don't want to make a formal complaint, you could raise it on Patient Opinion.

I wouldn't be okay with it, not least because it sends a terrible message to the child - I'm the doctor and I'll do what I want, when I want, how I want without anybody's consent.

Communication is a big part of being a doctor, he ought to have used these skills with the OP rather than trick her DD. There are times when thing just have to be done right there and then to save a life, given that the child was at OOH and not in resus it's very likely that a 10 second delay to say 'I really need to check her mouth' wouldn't have had drastic consequences (other than avoiding unnecessary distress!).

Get a grip!

Tongue depresses ar used for people of all ages.

At 7 your child is old enough to cooperate.

The worlds gone mad!

So you would be happy if a GP suddenly shoved a tongue depressor in your mouth, Twighlight? Or is it only ok for children?

Terrible. He may well have done it with good intentions- with little idea about the fact children that have minds as well as bodies. But still terrible - especially for a child who has had far more traumatic medical intervention than most.

I'd have been furious! I'd have been just as furious if someone had done that to my 3 year old.

He didn't ask her to cooperate, he didn't explain, in fact he told her he didn't need to look and then shoved something into her mouth without warning to make her gag.

Unbelievable that anyone would be fine with their child being treated like that tbh.

Twighlightsparkle - the tongue depressor wasn't the problem, it was the way he went about using it. At best he acted poorly towards a patient by saying a certain test could be missed then spotting an opportunity and taking it, at worst he lied to a patient (and by extension the adult responsible for that patient) and deliberately sought to bypass the most basic principles of good medical practice.

One of the most dangerous things that can happen is that a child comes to believe (rightly or wrongly) that they can't trust a doctor, it makes for a difficult and potentially dangerous situation.

Tribot yes - very hard! Sorry, reading my post back I didn't make it very clear that I think it would be really difficult to have said anything at the time, both because you'd be in shock at what they'djust done and because you'd be worried about what they might do (or not do) if you did complain and how it would affect treatment immediately afterwards.

I was just curious in case the OP had said something! [nosey smiley] I don't think they should have said anything necessarily - I am sure I wouldn't have the presence to if I found myself in the same predicament.

And definitely agree that it is something worth complaining about - really bad way to go about things by the doctor. Also - if he is one of 'those' doctors that always has appointments available because people ask not to see him, then the more complaints about him the better - hopefully it will enable the surgery to work towards getting him replaced by a much better doctor!

Twighlightsparkle - I think the phrase required here is RTFT. Unless you are saying you would be happy (as you're saying it's OK at any age) with a doctor deliberately gagging you?

I think the opportunity to say something got missed with the following struggle of her holding tight to the depressor.

Another thing, at 7 most children have wobbly teeth, what if he'd knocked one out doing that?

It's coincidence that we end up with him as they just pull the next patient off the top of the list. Every time I've been there and heard his voice (he's not local so quite distinctive) we look at each other and say "Please no!" We once took my youngest when he was a few months old and his response was "He might be ill or he might not be" we decided to take him to the paeds A&E to see which was the actual answer.

Exactly, Andro. We've done it for those kinds of treatments. I've known her at 2 years old be pushing a heart attack when an asthma attack was so bad and still manage to fight off a me, my dad, a male nurse and a male doctor as we held her down to be nebulised, she was totally lifeless before it was pulled out yet it took the four of us to hold it on and she was still giving it her all. As much as it broke my heart to do it she was seriously ill and needed it. The time on the ambulance I mentioned, she was a bit older and it was a similar story. We know all the poses to hold a small child using your arms and legs so someone else can administer vital medication. The only thing I refused was to hold a 5 week old for an LP, I left whilst OH did it.

I'm glad to read that others would have a problem with it, I know my limits are skewed so I honestly wasn't sure what to make of it.

I think he was wrong but don't let it get to you. Out of interest, was looking in her mouth vital to diagnosis?

Sorry I didn't get from the initial post that he'd forced her mouth open for the tongue depressed , I thought he'd just popped it in, without saying anything.

Was she hurt? Defiantly complain.

I think it's getting to me because it's made me wonder where my limits are, if that makes sense. He managed to diagnose her impending flu without looking in her mouth.

That's OK Twighlight. I think she managed to grab it before it hurt her. Complaining is definitely more and more my plan now.

Just reading about it has me furious. It is not ok.

I was terrified and avoided doctors until I was an adult because of incidents like this as a child. I still feel, irrationally, as a grown woman, that doctors are going to trick me - actually had to have doctors convince me they weren't going to do anything without my consent during examinations.

It's one thing to consent for your child. That is a parent's role, and often what has to be done, as with situations you've described. But this doctor forced something on your daughter without any consent, in a nonemergency situation. I would be livid.

It doesn't sound good and he should have tried harder to negotiate with a 7 year old. Having said that ... my son ended up very very poorly indeed, with a serious strep infection and other consequences, because he refused to open his mouth for everyone and so the dr.s didn't see how bad his throat had got. It wasn't till the consultant paed did exactly the trick you describe that anyone saw where the problem was coming from, and this was after he'd been admitted. He was in hospital on IV antibiotics and painkillers for a week but we could have lost him. If someone had forced his mouth open a few days earlier we would have had a much easier time. But he was much younger than your dd at the time.

I'd be fine with it, and would be cross with my 7 year old for refusing in the first place.

And yes, I get that he tricked her. I just don't care about that part particularly. He needed to see, he saw. Fine.

Not acceptable.

I would complain.

I wouldn't have been happy about that, but then, I wouldn't be happy if my DC refused to cooperate, either.

LettertoHermioneGranger - I'm sorry things like this have had such an effect on you as an adult, you've certainly given me something to think about.

systemsaddict - I've seen it done loads of times with children who aren't as old.

I was in so many times with them all when they were tiny I had them trained, we would see what they'd had for dinner and I'd say "No, not enough, open wider" then when they saw a doctor I'd say to show him what they had for dinner.

CinnabarRed / Wuxiapian - she said no, he said "that's OK I don't need to see." If he'd have said I need to see I would have told her to and maybe been cross if she hadn't, but she hadn't been disobedient as he didn't want to see - or as far as I was aware - so nothing to be cross about. Would you also have been cross with her pushing a heart attack and refusing a nebuliser? I'm afraid I gained far more empathy with my children for what they've been through and don't do cross, but then they don't do not well.

I do wonder whether some of you think I should have cooperated with the midwife I described who tried to inject me in my sleep? Does there come a cut off where it's OK to hurt a person to treat them against their will.

Interestingly, despite the way some posters have responded to me, I didn't come to this thread with an idea one way or another. As I've already said I didn't know where the limit lay. The answers here have helped me make sense of what has happened.