4yr old - is this a reflux thing or something else??

[Pancakeflipper]

DS2 is 4. He is dairy-free and we do ok with this.

But last year we had a phase of him bringing up his meal just after ( within 20 mins of eating). I thought it was him drinking too quickly with his meal and we seemed to improve.

Now this week he has been doing sicky burps (little bits of food coming back into his mouth) within an hour of eating.

He has always been very burpy and very prone to hiccups.

As a baby he would projectile vomit after feeds. But I thought that was due to having a severe intolerance to dairy....

Have any of you got similar experiences and words of wisdom

Yes, still sounds likely to be reflux. Both my DSs suffered but whereas DS1 outgrew it, DS2 (10yrs) still suffers on occasion. What we found helped a lot was actually not allowing drinks with his meals. It's bizarre but if we forget, his reflux (and after-meals stomach ache & bloating) is not always bad, but it usually is... When we stick to the rule he very rarely has any trouble.

The idea is that drinking water while eating dilutes the stomach acid and makes it harder for the child to digest the food, and so the body detects this and then goes into acid production overdrive. It sounded BS unlikely to me, but seemed easy enough to try, and I was surprised when it made an immediate improvement.

Thank you Lazydog.

Thats interesting as I thought giving water at meals would make it better.

When do you give a drink ? Is it like 30mins after the meal (my 4 yr old drinks lots) or later or before?

And did you have any medication prescribed for this ? Cannot decide if to see the Dr about this.

Hi Pancake flipper. Yes, basically I try to remember to ask him to stop drinking when I start preparing the meals, and then try to make him wait at least 30 mins after he's finished eating. If he's really thirsty we don't stop him having it sooner, but I warn him about the possible consequences and tell him that it's his choice whether he takes the gamble

I've also found that drinking fruit juice (or [whispers] a coke, if we're out at a restaurant) doesn't cause him any trouble. It does seem specific to water. Oh, and fruit juice on an empty stomach doesn't agree with him, either.

We had infant Gaviscon when he was little, which was useless. With hindsight I should have been more pushy on his behalf, but the GP wouldn't offer anything else :( He's so much better now that I don't think he needs regular medication. Your DS sounds like his is worse, but if it's only been a week, I probably wouldn't go to the drs yet. Certainly if it persists, though, as the acid can cause damage, long term...

LazyDog, you are a star. Thanks, that all helps.

Think a visit to the Dr's will be required but going to do a food/drink diary first.

DS1 developed reflux around age 5, although I suspect he had been suffering from it for quite a while before but was unable to verbalise it properly.

He was put on Omeprazole which didn't help much. I did some research myself and found there was a link between reflux and tongue tie. We got his tongue tie revised and the reflux stopped.

Could this be a possibility?

It could be.... How can I tell if its a tongue tie issue?

What symptoms did your DS1 have ?

Glad you found a reason and it was resolved

You might be able to spot a really obvious one, but there are some which can only be spotted by someone who really, really knows what they are looking for (ie probably not your HV or GP).

DS1s tongue appeared normal, he could lift it up, stick it out etc, but it was the back of his tongue which was tied, so he couldn't swallow properly and took in a lot of air. It is called a posterior tongue tie.

How did feeding go as a baby? Did you try to breastfeed?

This info is more about babies, but does any of it sound familiar?

Sorry, I just realised that you asked what his symptoms were.

He started complaining of a burning in his chest and being sick in his mouth. He was a really, really fussy eater and was only willing to eat sloppy stuff like yogurts or custard and soft foods like sandwiches. If he did eat anything that he had to chew, he would take a few mouthfuls and say he was full. He had an endoscopy after a while because the drugs didn't seem to be doing much, and the endoscopy just showed a bit of swelling and irritation from the reflux, nothing sinister.

As well as the reflux, he had repeated ear "infections" and congestion and hearing loss. I say "infections" because I think that his ears were possibly being irritated by gastric fluid being forced into his eustacean tubes rather than there being an infection. A few months after his reflux stopped, the congestion disappeared and I don't think it was a coincidence.

His tongue tie has caused a high narrow palate which has restricted his nasal passages, so he was a mouth breather and snorer and did have some periods of sleep apnoea. (He is 7 now and we are addressing the palate issue with orthodontics to avoid extractions when he is a teen and to open up his nasal passages)

Tied kids seem to be more prone to allergies and intolerances, and true to form he had an egg allergy and a milk intolerance, both outgrown now thankfully.

He also had a lip tie which is easier to spot than a tongue tie. He had a very thick frenulm under his upper lip which we also had revised. Most people have a frenulum there, but if you lift it and it blanches, then it most likely causing a restriction. Some of the lip ties can go right under the gum and cause a gap between the front teeth. If there's a lip tie, then there is almost always a tongue tie, usually a posterior one.

That's all I can recall at the moment.....

I tried bf but had to stop a few weeks in. He would not latch. He would always want to be on my nipple but not take in milk.

He was a very difficult baby. Used to projectile vomit alot, never slept well (20mins a time). Colicky. Diagnosed as dairy intolerant when 2 (now 4) and I thought that was the issue.

But issues keep flaring up like vomiting straight after meals hiccups several times a day, burping constantly and now these icky burps

Just read that info ..... Wow. Yes. A lot to take in there. And he still drools!

Thank you. I sound like a sap but I could hug you both for your help.

Where are you based PancakeFlipper?

North Derbyshire/South Yorks.

Just checked his tongue ( he was awake little monkey). Looked to be middle/front of the tongue. Not sure what is normal.

Certainly the symptoms you describe could well be caused by a tongue tie. It might be worth investigating it further.

There is a dentist in Huddersfield called John Roberts at the Cote Royd Dental practice. He trained with Larry Kotlow who is the leading authority on tongue and lip ties and he revises by laser with no need for GA. Last I heard, he was only revising under 1s and over 6s, but it might be worth asking his opinion. When I took DS1 there last year, it was around £50 for a consultation.

There is also a facebook group called Tongue Tie Babies Support Group. There are some older kids and adults on there too. You can post photos and get opinions.

Thank you for all the info. Really do appreciate it.

I am going to look into this further. DP has just reminded me that it was suggested when he was a baby but we didn't think anything if it as it was not right at the front.

Thanks again.

Please also have a look at 'Living with Reflux - UK's National Charity' on facebook. Lots on mum on there that can give you reflux advice.

Thanks Trackies. Will look at that. Ta.

He was bad this weekend to extent of burping up food and covering his tops in it several times. Need to change our Dr's ( all the decent ones have apparently left leaving the 2 who have no patience for little ones) and get some help with this.

Hi pancakeflipper. I just want to say good luck, I hope you manage to find out what the problem is.

I am in a similar situation. My ds is 4, allergic to dairy and has similar problems with eating. He also can not chew things unless they are soft. He swallows chewy things whole which is a big worry for me (have had a couple of choking incidents). My ds does have an obvious tongue tie but doctors say it is not causing the problems. I think it must be but they seem so sure it is not. He is on a waiting list to be assessed by speech and language therapy (NHS).

Please let us know if you find out what the problem is.

tacal, it really would be worth looking into the tongue tie issue.

All the docs I saw for DS1 were very dismissive of the link between ties and gastric problems and I was a lone voice saying that I was sure this was what was wrong.

And I was right!!

Tacal - is yr DS seeing a consultant? If not push for one. If so then hope the Speech therapist sides with you.

Must be worth trying to resolve surely? Because its just not fun this is it? And if it doesn't solve the issues then you can let Dr say 'told you sooooooo'.

My DS2 was way behind on lumpy stuff when weaning and thinking about it - even now he prefers soft stuff. Won't eat a ham sarnie but will have mashed egg or tuna .....

I saw a consultant at a private hospital and he seemed very sure it is not causing the problems. The manager from speech and language therapy came out to my house to assess him eating and she said the same. She said his tongue has plenty of movement. But she wrote to me afterwards saying they will do further investigations to assess the tongue tie. The consultant at the private hospital said he will cut the tie if speech and language say it is causing problems with his speech. So I just need to wait and it is an NHS waiting list so will probably be a long wait. It is good to hear that you got you ds's problems resolved by having the tie revised. It is very useful to hear other people's experiences regarding this because I have not met anyone in RL with similar problems.

Pancakeflipper, i have two refluxers - 3yo and 5yo. They both used to vomit milk up alot as babies. 3yo DS vomited alot until 1.5years where he had to be medicated with Omeprazole as he 'failure to thrive' due to not putting on weight. So now has lots of feeding aversions due to being sick. 5yo DD turned to silent refluxer at 9months so i couldn't see her being sick. But she had lots of problems with eating and gagging etc. Just took her to the go as she's been struggling lately and he's prescribed Ranitidine for reflux to see if it will help. Reflux is very misunderstood by gp's and health visitors so is hard to get help sometimes. Good luck with getting some help.

pancake, your ds sounds so similar to mine. I think you are right and I will have to push to get the tongue tie cut. It is not fun and I am so worried about his eating at school. I would like to get things resolved before he starts school later this year.

Are you going to see a doctor about your ds?

I am but need to look into changing GP's.

Had 2 pretty bad misdiagnosis's with DS2 and its been a battle each time. Not sure I fancy another lengthy fight. There's a surgery in the next village and will ask about transferring.

Trackies, meant to ask has the meds been any good for your two?

Do you have a bag of kitchen roll, wipes, carrier bags and spare clothing like I do when going out ?

Just to add, most docs I dealt with knew diddly squat about tongue tie and I was poo pooed by GPs, paeds, gastro specialists etc.

Seek out people who really understand the impact of tongue tie.

DS1 had a really good range of tongue movement. He could stick it out, he could touch the roof of his mouth with it, his speech was good etc etc BUT it was the back of his tongue that was restricted (posterior tongue tie) causing all the problems.

Before I knew what I know now, we took him privately to a paed surgeon who used to run the tongue tie clinic. He told us there was no tongue tie FFS. I should have walked at that point, but I didn't know any different so we had his tie revised under GA at huge expense. It wasn't done properly, but was done enough to relieve the reflux. We then went on to have it revised correctly (by laser, only with local anaesthetic), along with his lip tie and he is now undergoing orthodontic treatment to help reverse the damage caused to his oral/facial structure by the incorrect movement of his tongue.

I might have mentioned this earlier, but try the tongue tie babies support group on Facebook.

John Roberts at Cote Royd dental practice in Huddersfield and Malcolm Levinkind in North London are the two dentists who have trained with Dr Kotlow.

DS went onto Omeprazole at 19 months and it made a huge difference. I really dont think he would have survived without it. I should have done it sooner though as he has severe food aversions. Now 3.5years and still struggling but much better than he was. DD only started on Rantidine last week. She is now 5 so i can't tell yet. But her reflux is mild. We finally got referal to very good paediatric gastroenterologist. This i believe has really helped my DS.