All of you who CHOOSE not to vaccinate your children

[UniqueAndAmazing]

Do you realise that's the reason why there's now an epidemic of measles in Wales?

You know children with auto-immune problems, children with cancers, children with allergies that mean they can't be medicated, children who react badly to drugs?
You know them? They're suffering because of you not wanting to vaccinate your child.

You have no medical reason for not vaccinating, but plenty of reasons TO vaccinate.

You are causing a whole generation of children to be endangered from a preventable disease.

Measles can be fatal
(that means it can kill )

"I think most people on here upset about the epidemic and using that as a stick to beat the non vaxers are worried about their own children."

I'm not worried about my own children. Because they are vaccinated.

And I did say I know a lot of families who don't vaccinate. Some for good reasons, some for bad. The people who have bad reasons are putting the others at risk. Pure and simple.

HazardLamps, I am going to ignore your coment, you can check and see that you decided to attack me after I expressed my opinion.
Just one Q to everyone decided to opt out : Will you do the jab if there is an outbreak in your area?

Couldn't of said if better myself. As a medical profession, I think it's bordering on negligence to not vaccinate your children. The research against the MMR was completely flawed. If these parents who think they know better actually did some research they would see that they are no proven risks

U and A, I'm very shocked by your patronising attitude and your extremely blinkered opinions. Of course autism is brain damage, what did you think it was, damage to the heart, kidneys?

Also, does it matter whether someone thinks their child may have developed autism or brain damage as a result of the mmr, whichever way you put it, it's a completely valid reason for not wanting to vaccinate their other children and also for other parents to struggle with the decision. You seem to be saying you would understand this if the child had 'brain damage' but not if they had autism.

We live in a democratic society and whilst most people would obviously be concerned about the greater good for all children, I don't think anyone would say that they would put their concern for other children over their concern for their own. Even in a situation such as when a child dies, the parents rightly have the choice as to whether to donate their organs. Would you argue that this right should be removed as donating the organs could save the lives of 4 or 5 children or do you think parents should have a say in this?

Elbombero. I am also a medical professional and have given my oldest son the mmr but am still deciding about the younger two as my oldest had quite a bad reaction.

Can you honestly say, however, that if, like one of the posters here, your child completely changed after the mmr and developed severe autism, that you would have no hesitation about vaccinating your other children?

How can you say that is bordering on negligence?

"HazardLamps, I am going to ignore your coment, you can check and see that you decided to attack me after I expressed my opinion.
Just one Q to everyone decided to opt out : Will you do the jab if there is an outbreak in your area?"

babySophieRose, it's convenient that you've decided to ignore my comments after I challenged you for making incorrect assumptions. I'd also suggest that you have an interesting take on the definition of the term "attack".

But no matter if you can't defend your assumptions about non-vaccinators and so on, the question you've raised to those who've decided to opt out applies to me too, so I'll answer it whether you want me to or not.

No.

'The research against the MMR was completely flawed. If these parents who think they know better actually did some research they would see that they are no proven risks'

I see - so we just ignore the parents who say their child had a bad reaction to the vaccine?

Elbombero, please can you point me to an up-to-date government statement which says that there are "no proven risks" in being the recipient of an MMR vaccination?

I'm not worried about my own children. Because they are vaccinated. and
The people who have bad reasons are putting the others at risk. Pure and simple.

That seems incompatible to me.

Can someone explain me why so many people (who all have their dcs vaccinated?) are so worried about the outbreak then?
Why do you think you are putting people at risk? Surely by that standard the only people who are put at risk are the one who haven't had the injection. Which a very small part of the population.

In which case, can you explain to me why one small part of the population (the one who can't have the vax) is more important than the other small part of the population (The ones who don't want the vax for safety issues)?

I do agree that the people who haven't done the vax and are now running around to try and protect their dcs are one issue. Really they don't have such a strong objection and should have had their dc vax. But what about the others, the ones who will still not vax their dcs?

I'm still interested to know how many of the pro-vaccinators have had their children titer tested since they were vaxed, to check that it has worked, and how many regularly have themselves and their children checked thereafter. Especially the more, er, vociferous posters. Otherwise it's all hypothetical and a bit of a nonsense, isn't it? Otherwise you've no idea whether you and yours are covered or whether you're just as "bad" as me and my children.

I notice that when I persisted with that observation the OP copped a strop and left the discussion.

I find that interesting and telling too.

I haven't had my titers tested. I don't think this makes my belief in vaccines being generally a good thing invalid. If titre tests were available on the NHS I would go down and do it tomorrow. As far as I am aware, they are not.

Agree with Narmada. Whilst titer testing may not be a bad idea, so far as I know it is not medically recommended at the moment. I can only assume that the medical profession feel their time and money is better spent elsewhere on other priorities and that titer testing is not generally necessary. Without any medical qualifications, I am prepared to go with their view. Of course doctors don't always get it right (I have often had cause to doubt those of individual doctors) but when the overriding majority of them have a view on something, I bow to their collective greater knowledge.

I suspect the OP disappeared because the OP was upset and not because there is no answer to the points being made about titers etc.

Ps I am still surprised that so many anti vaxers keep going on this thread. It really is better for your DC that others vaccinate. The fact that others do is what makes your decision not to a bit easier (I know some of you guys, especially (though not exclusively of course) those whose children have health problems have had to make very difficult choices). I am afraid I am still here because I am worried that you will persuade others not to vaccinate.

Here are some numbers
Since the 70s - tens of millions of MMR vaccines in the UK.
How many deaths from MMR vacccine? Actual data please, not hearsay
Deaths from whooping cough, measles, mumps and rubella among unvaccinated children - stats readily available

How many cases of complications (not rashes, fevers and expected side effects), but life changing events. And please, causal links - again not correlation.

How many complications in those who've not vaccinated?

Well, if you don't vaccinated you are in the MINORITY. And yet 765 (at last count) of measles in UNvaccinated children in Wales. BBC has list of children in hospital with complications following the outbreak.

The British homeopathic society yesterday announced that it supports vaccinating children.

I get really angry with anti-vacc mob peddling their half truths and anecdotes. In Australia 2 years ago, a young baby died of whooping cough. The anti-vacc mob claimed for years that none of the childhood illnesses were dangerous and accused the grieving mother - to her face - of lying about the death from whooping cough.

You want to see who you're standing shoulder to shoulder with if your anti vaccination - google Meryl Dorey.

And of you're really worried about vaccination, why bother with any modern medicine. It's all baed on the same clinical trials and processes.

Harriet,I do understand that and i really feel for those who have chosen not to vaccinate with real reasons for their concerns (health or predisposition to a health problem). This epidemic must be worrying for many of you.

I think that you have made your point now that it is not always a simple choice and we all understand and empathise with that.

My point is that it is clear that most of the other posters accept that it is not a simple decision for everyone and support you. Most are also against mandatory vax. If you believe you have made the right choice be confident about that. There is a real risk though that all the arguing on this thread will unintentionally obfuscate the fact that vaxing for most people is the right thing to do. That is potentially dangerous for your Dc and for those of others, particularly when there is an epidemic going on.

coorog - where did you hear the all the children were unvaccinated? I saw a report saying 25% in the outbreak were vaccinated (and unfortunately David Salisbury wasn't able to answer that question to confirm or deny it last week). I have been searching for the raw data everywhere - if you have it would love to see it.

"I am still surprised that so many anti vaxers keep going on this thread...I am afraid I am still here because I am worried that you will persuade others not to vaccinate."

Well hush my mouth!

I think that the combination of some of us being told that we shouldn't post, that we are "fucking selfish" &co and of some of us stating repeatedly that despite insinuations/accusations to the contrary we don't give a dang what you do with your children or your bodies and are only concerned about others to telling us what to do with ours should be sufficient to reassure you that there is no intention or likelihood of our opinions converting others.

You may not like what I say, although I maintain that I've said it a heck of a lot more calmly and politely than some of my detractors, but I defend to the death my right to say it!

Re titer testing, why do you think that even if they have been vaccinated nurses etc need to have IgG blood tests? For fun?

Just because it isn't available on the NHS or insisted upon is a nonsensical argument. It doesn't mean that vaccinations sometimes don't "take" or that vaccinations don't sometimes wear off and that therefore without up to date confirmation that the jabs have been and continue to be effective there is no guarantee that those who've been vaccinated are any less of a risk to the community than someone who hasn't been. It just means that those who are denigrating the non vaccinators while being without an up to date titre themselves might be being a little hypocritical.

Saintlyjimjams, that report of 25% of sufferers already having been vaccinated - does that include those who have already been vaxed with single vaccinations or is that purely those who have been vaccinated on the NHS with the triple jab?

In anotherwords, if the info you have is correct (and I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm just unaware of the figures myself and don't want to take them as read for fear of being accused of spreading "half-truths and anecdotes" ) then is it possible that the actual figures of vaccinated people who have contracted measles are higher still as some of those will have had unrecorded single jabs?

Apologies if I don't come back immediately to thank you for any response but I have a funeral to attend.

Yes I I think so hazard - although I haven't seen the data - only a report (which was presented as a positive for vaccination so I'm inclined to believe it) the same thought occurred to me though.

Hazard, you have every right to put your points across. I don't want to get into any mud slinging or to point any fingers at anyone's individual decision. I don't support anyone making their point aggressively towards others on either side. And for what it's worth I may not agree with you but i do think you are obviously very intelligent and debate fairly.

I only ask that those who have good reasons not to vax think very carefully about what they are posting and don't inadvertently ( and i emphasise that) encourage others to avoid vaxing without any reason. My only wish is to keep your Dc and others safe. Think I have done all I can on that now so will take my leave.

Just about doing my head in reading the rubbish being spouted on this thread...the reason us 'pro-vaccinators' are worried about the epidemic is two-fold!

1. Some of us have young babies who are as yet unvaccinated and in a very much at risk of complications group! Believe me if the epidemic continues to spread (as the DOH feel it might) I will be the first to ask for early vacc for my baby. But I really shouldn't have to do this...herd immunity should protect him!!

1. Some of us care about other people's children. You know-the one's on life saving chemo, or autoimmune treatment for horrible diseases like juvenile arthritis. Even if vaccinated in the past the treatment they are on suppresses the immune system making them at risk of much more serious complications. Society just won't function if all we can think about is ourselves!!

Bloody hell people...

The autism debate/debacle...

For those who say MMR caused autism (I don't doubt that a VERY small percentage of children will have an adverse reaction and if anyone had bothered to read the link I posted from the CDC they would realise this is MUCH smaller than the percentage of children who will suffer serious complications from measles, mumps or rubella) I ask you...was your child actually talking at 12-13 months when the MMR is given? Much of the new evidence suggests that what actually happens is more likely to be that MMR is given around about the time we would expect to see these skills emerging and thus when they don't shortly after MMR is given the natural response is to link a causal relationship?

Joules.

I have vaccinated my three. The youngest is only little so just had the first dose. My eldest is Autistic. I agree with what you say about Autism traits and age development, in our family we have a strong Autistic genetic link we can trace back many generations (from before Autism had a name). For some Autistic children there isn't such a link. They appear to have no family genetic link.

But, as mentioned I'm the parent of an Autistic child who I love dearly, but dominates all family life and will be my responsibility till I die and then I fear for him and feel sad that a burden passes to his siblings. If I thought in any way that his Autism had been linked to MMR I honestly don't know if i'd have vacinated my younger two. Maybe that would be for selfish reasons but I couldn't cope with two of DS, it really takes over your life and changes it forever. DD, my youngest, has some traits but at least she can feed herself and suck.

For some people, who have thought things through and made a personal choice not to vaccinate, then I don't see it as others place to judge. The people who I hope can be swayed are those who just avoided because they remembered they'd heard something bad. In the area I used to live, when DS2 and his toddler group associates were vax age, several parents expressed to me oh we're not bothering with that you don't get measels anymore anyway and they hate vaccinations they really cried after their baby vax's.

I'm waffling, sorry. Its all been said really.

MMR used to be given at 15-18 months.

There is no autism in our family.

At 12 months my son had lots of sounds such as 'qua-' for quack' and 'sssss' for snake and 'ka' for his caterpillar mobile and 'gar' for garden.

We have video of him saying all these (along with video of him playing peekaboo at 9 months and lots of back and forth communication with us).

Now a teenager he cannot make the sounds 'qua' or 'ssss' or 'ka' or 'gar'. When I looked back at videos I found I had forgotten how much he was doing, and had underestimated what he could do at 12/13 months. You are quite wrong that that regression is seen as parents just not noticing their child was odd by anyone actually familiar with autism. Regressive autism is known to exist and believed to be triggered in a variety of different ways. As misfor said autism is not one thing. Many cases of autism might not be regressive but they're not really relevant to those that are.

In some cases regression is accompanied by the beginning of major health problems as well. You don't just not notice exploding diarrhoea really.

Babies born to mothers who have had measles have much better protection from measles in their first year than babies born to vaccinated mothers unfortunately (this is on the HPA website if you don't believe me). The only research I can find looking at rates of measles vaccination (ie MMR PLUS those who have had singles) is on the 2000-2002 birth cohort - these were children born during the height of the MMR concerns - and it found that approx 94% of children had had a measles vaccine (either MMR or monovalent). If that paper reflects the situation in Wales (and it includes data from Wales) then this outbreak is taking place in a highly vaccinated population and shouting at people who have watched siblings regress is somewhat missing the point.