Insomniac 7yr old - wits end!

[whethergirl]

DS has never been a great sleeper. He was one of those babies that didn't sleep through the night (first time was when he was 2).

He has better and worse periods, but on the whole, no matter how tired he is, he doesn't fall asleep generally until about 11pm. Earliest 10pm. Very occasionally, when it's all caught up with him, he has an 'early' night of 9.30pm. We get up at 8am and it's such hard work getting him out of bed because he is so tired.

If I could have a penny for every time someone said "Have you tried....". Yes, I probably have. Lavender pillows, adjusted lighting, earlier bedtime, later bedtime, changed eating times, quiet, background noise, etc etc.

The paediatrician basically shrugged her shoulders and said "some kids are like that."

I'm surprised that something is bound to have an effect on both his physical and mental health is not more of a concern.

Does anyone else have or had sleep deprived children?

What is it he is doing until that time? My DS is also a very light sleeper but unlike yours if he goes to bed at 10 he still gets up at 5.30/6am and is grumpy all day. He has toys and books in his room but not electronics or TV. Now that he is 8 he has a better understanding that when it is his bedtime he goes up to his room. He doesn't get to stay downstairs or watch tv as it is our time. No DS or Ipad either. We usualy read a bit with him and then he is left to himself. If he lies there bored he either shouts out a couple of times for us or just lies there till he falls asleep.

In previous years he would just keep nagging us that he couldnt get to sleep so the only hope I can give you is that he will start to understand that bedtime is not negotiable and whether he lies there staring at the cieling or read a book is up to him.

thanks sherbetpips - it's not that I can't get him to bed. I also leave him to it and sometimes he does just lie there and stare at the ceiling and sometimes he goes to the toilet, makes requests etc. but I make it clear to him that these interruptions are not welcome! The last thing I do is read him a story and then allow him to read books in bed for a little while - he always trys to have extra time with these (and tries to drag out saying goodnight too) but I do put my foot down.

The problem is, he actually can not fall asleep, therefore he is not getting enough sleep, and this is the bit that worries me.

dd1 is a bit like that - she sleeps well once she's asleep, but can take ages to get to sleep. We put her to bed (she's 8.5 now) at 9pm, and she rarely falls asleep before 10pm in the summer - then up at 7.45am. Its partly the light, and partly - from what she says - just her brain being active and excited about being alive!

Its a lot easier now she is old enough to read in bed, and turn her own little reading light out - somehow, self-regulating has helped. She hated lying in the dark, frustrated by her inability to fall asleep. Understandably.

I suppose your ds is getting 9 hours sleep, which isn't great but at the same time dd has never - ever - slept more than 10 - 10.5 hours per night, even as a toddler. It can just be the norm for some of us, I think.

Is your ds any better at sleeping in the winter? Or when it rains?

Meant to add - end of term is the worst time, as she is over tired and over stimulated, somehow. Gets easier in holidays!

Thanks Elibean, that's exactly how my ds feels, too excited to sleep! He has blackout curtains in his bedroom so it's still dark enough - can't remember if it was any better in the Winter actually but that's a good point, most of us need more sleep in the Winter. I know he's not getting enough sleep because he is so tired and difficult to wake up in the mornings. You've given me an idea though, maybe I should let him look at books (he is dyslexic so can't read) for as long as he wants to. Although I'm sure I've tried that and he just keeps going until there is a pile of about 50 books on his bed and it's an hour later!

I have no idea whether this could help/is allowed to be taken by children but I had a period of real trouble sleeping and feeling rested when sleeping as a teen (which left me totally frazzled). There were many reasons but I took a passiflora supplement (think called nature calm, I've seen it recently) which really improved the quality of my sleep and then the ease of getting to sleep. I know my sil didn't sleep through until 7.5 ish and now sleeps well do perhaps it will pass! I think that once you're looked in the loop it's really hard to adjust. The other thing which helped me and still does is talking myself through a basic relaxation, working on the principle that even if awake I was "resting". Starting at the forehead breath in,scrunch up the muscles, hold and then exhale to relax, concentrating on the feeling of relaxation. Go all the way down arms, torso, bum, legs, feet (point both ways) and then back up. Concentrating on breathing deeply and the sense of release as the tension goes is lovely. And feels more positive than lying there staring into the darkness!

In fact I'm off to do it now :)

I found it hard as a child to go to sleep and fear was part of that. My fed up mother insisted I count, as high as I could. She was even more fed up when I got to 3200. But I still do it if I can't sleep.

We have a Ds who wakes throughout the night tho a teen. Friends of ours have a daughter who slept no more than 2 hours a night until recently. She is a professional and 6 foot and lively and nice so she seems to have survived. They nearly didn't, she slept for a max of 40 mins within the two hours, iyswim, ie the two hours was a total, not by any means all on one go. They alternated sleep themselves in shifts.

One friend has an overthinking anxious child. He is allowed quiet classical music to play throughout the night as he finds it calming.

MsPickle - do you mean this? I must admit I never considered sleeping aids, thinking it unsuitable for children, but I think I will make an appointment with one of the GPs at my local practice (there is one in particular who has some understanding of natural remedies) and if she has no objection, then I could try it, even for a couple of months so that it kickstarts his body into the habit.

oldgreyknickertest - there are some nights where ds is frightened. If it's not too bad then I just try to reassure him, wobble the dream catcher (because this makes it work apparently!) and give him some extra comfort in the shape of an extra teddy or outside light or let him sleep in my bed where he feels safer. If it's really bad, then I just stay in his room and read a book until he falls asleep.

DS is also, to some extent, an 'overthinking anxious child'. I did think about playing one of those tranquility cd's with sea noises and whatever, but I guess I felt that I didn't want him to depend on it (and would cause a problem if he stayed overnight where he couldn't have it) or that it became another bedtime ritual (like some of the other stuff I've tried) that he can't do without, even though it is of no help. However, I think I will give it a go. I'll try classical and tranquility sounds and see which he prefers!

DS is also a very fidgety, overactive child - he can never keep still, which doesn't help at all.

Encouraging to hear about your friend's dd - 2 HOURS a night?!! I do worry that lack of sleep will his stunt his growth or his mental capacity so that's good to know!

Hi yes I did. I ended up using it after a relative who was going through a tough time was recommended it by her gp and my dm tried it for me. He's coming to an age where I remember wanting to feel more in control of lots of things so perhaps that and something with an element of meditation? Will be interested to hear what your GP says.

I also remembered another trick I used to use (and have done as a couple), sleeping the other way up, I.e head at feet end. For some reason that shift in perspective has sorted us in the past. My dh also swears by sleeping on the floor (if floorboards). We also had a relaxation cd from a hypo-therapist that I got as a freebie, it wasn't a whole programme even but she had such a relaxing voice we both used to be asleep within minutes!

Became less of an issue post child as we needed every second possible as the baby did not sleep!!

Good luck, hope he cracks it.

Mine too. His trouble is that he gets twitchy when tired do can't physically keep still long enough to fall asleep. He fidgets, lies upside down, gets in and out, wanders around.

I've thing that worked for a while were relaxation tapes. There was one which was a man reading a story on the beach but they had to do things whilst listening, like imagining themselves being wrapped in colour.

Sounds wanky but was very good.

Then dS got bored and refused to listen anymore. But story tapes often do the trick too.

But I feel your pain, and have no real answers.

2 hours was good.

My DM taught me a mantra when DS couldn't sleep, which goes after stories and with us in prayers but which can be degodified, iyswim,

(Dear Lord), May no thieves break in nor fire break out, (Amen).

It had a remarkably calming effect on Ds as it did on her too, apparently.

But also have you thought of cranial osteopathy? It again is calming if you can afford it.

Sounds fairly similar to my 9yo. Always a bad sleeper (altho' he also wakes early) and often finds it difficult to get to sleep. He is also fidgety , overanxious, over thinking etc. We let him put his light back on and read for a bit (10 mins)), and then switch off and try again. But we don't let him in our bed unless he is ill... nor will I sit with him, as otherwise it feels neverending (and I have to get downstairs to do stuff!) Big difference for us is the amount of physical exercise he gets... and if he's going through a bad phase we'll try and take him swimming/cycling etc a bit extra. (We noticed a pattern of sleeping worse when they were kept inside at school because of the weather!)

Another thing. If he is a worrier (which mine is)... then you might want to try a book called 'What to do when you worry too much'... it has honestly changed our lives, and I can't recommend it highly enough.
Good luck,
madcows

I think I would try a herbal supplement (valerian?) or Kalms. If you go and talk to a pharmacist they should be able to recommend something. Warm milk at bedtime helps some people to drop off too.

I'm going to write this one last time.

The long day light resets children's body clocks, whether we want it to or not!

Relax, chill and gently reintroduce reasonable bed time in late August before they go back to school.

Madcows, have just looked it up on Amazon and tempted to get the whole range

Could get some childrens audio books on cd he could listen to in bed. Might help him drift off?

Starball - lucky you to have a child that sleeps well once shorter days return. Some of us don't and being told to relax and chill is frankly irritating!

Toysoldiers - hadn't realised there were others. But the worry one is just fantastic, and has honestly transformed my son. GP, CAHMS etc didn't touch it. That book did!

OP - having looked up the range on Amazon just now, I notice there is one called What to do when you dread your bed, by the same woman - Dawn Huebner. Might be worth a try.

Have you been offered Melatonin? This can be prescribed by a GP. My dd is an utter nightmare. She's just turned 5 and has always been a sod at going to sleep. We are trying Calms Forte for kids at the moment....not much success!

Thanks everyone, it's comforting to know I'm not alone!

MsPickle - ds often sleeps the other way round but it doesn't make any difference. By the time he has tossed and turned himself to sleep I have found him in all sorts of positions!

toysoldiers - ditto, ds gets VERY twitchy when tired - which is practically all of the time. I'm not convinced story tapes would help...I would think ds would stay awake to listen to the story? However, will bear it in mind.

oldgreyknickertest - that prayer is a bit of a risk, the mention of thieves and fire might get my ds going! I have taken ds to a reputable cranial school which accepts donations, but it takes 2 hours to get there and appointments are during week daytime only - however, I may reconsider now that he is off school.

madcows - there have been days when he has ran around all day and I'm convinced he'll fall straight asleep, but it doesn't always work. Thanks for the book recommendations, they look fantastic. I want to get both the worry and sleep one. I think it's a great idea to teach kids coping techniques from the beginning. I was always a worrier as a child and suffered depression as an adult, wish I had that kind of support as a child, it could have prevented the depression (or made it easier to cope with).

CharlotteWasBoth those cds look fantastic, thanks for that, will be ordering a couple of those also!

juneau - warm milk makes no difference I'm afraid. I made an appointment with the dr to talk about Kalms, will see what she says but think I should try the above books/cds first.

StarBallBunny - I'm trying to remember whether ds has got worse in the Summer - but even so - I still need to find a way to help him as he can't go through all summer every summer with inadequate sleep!

servingwench - will mention it to the GP, thanks!

He sounds like my DS, who is now 10. Although never a brilliant sleeper he wasn't really bad until he started school. Unfortunatly I don't have any solutions. My DS now reads until he feels tired, but is still regularly awake when I go to bed at 11ish. If he's asleep before 10 that's an early night!
Have you asked the school if it is causing problems with his learning or concentration? When I asked the teacher was very surprised and said that while some children do complain of being tired, he never does. I don't think it's causing any problems with growth or development, as he's quite tall, very active and doing very well at school. So I'm inclined to agree with the paediatrician - some children are just like that!
Do you know how you or his dad slept at children? Because I also got by on very little sleep as a child, so I wonder if there may be some heredity. My middle child is quite a good sleeper. But DC3 (Aged just 3) is showing the same signs as his brother....

My not keen on bed DD1 doesn't go through life on too little sleep.

Every now and again she takes herself to bed very early to catch up.

I guess she has done since she was about 8 or 9.

Sorry I didn't mean to be patronising, I simply meant that high summer is not the time to tackle the problem.

Darker evenings don't guarantee DCs will be easier to get to sleep, but light ones really do hinder.

moajab - the school know about his sleep problems, and sometimes I mention it to his teacher if he's having an especially bad week. He does struggle at school but then he is dyslexic and so finds it all a challenge anyway. I don't know about his dad and don't think I had any major sleeping issues, will ask my mum.

StarBallBunny - point taken. I guess I should relax a bit more now that it's school hols anyway!

Hi, if you do plan on seeing your GP I would keep a diary of his sleep for a couple of weeks so GP can see that it's a sustained issue and not a one off.
Good luck if you do go