child on child sexual abuse, survivors? can you help me please?

[needadvicefast]

Have also posted in behaviour and development before i found this section.
My 5 yr old dd has been sexually abused by another 5 year old girl, it's been going on for at least 6 months, there's no doubt about her disclosure, social services are involved with us and the other child. She is extremely traumatised and I think we've been managing to help her but tonight I stopped her from messing with dd2s (age 2.5) legs and lifting the back of her nappy. She is saying "I think it's right because B (other girl) did it to me." She has agreed to tell me when she wants to "mess" with her sister before she does it and obviously i'm not planning on leaving them alone together for the forseeable but how the hell do i deal with this?? We're waiting for mental health help but have been told it's likely to be up to 6 weeks before anything happens. If anyone has any insight into what she's going through or how to help her deal with the fact that this behaviour has been "normalised" for her I would be extremely grateful.

no idea how to help but just wanted to bump this for you, I'm sure someone else will be along soon.

thanks, am thinking for now until i can speak to social worker, maybe the best thing to do is to treat it like any other unacceptable behaviour she's picked up from school, along the lines of "it maybe that B does this but that does not mean it's ok for you to do this." she has been pushing boundaries a lot since disclosure 3 weeks ago, maybe she's just testing me? She did it while i watched, dd2 is too young to be left alone anyway IMO so i don't think there's much chance it's happened before although obviously i don't know for sure....

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eeeerrrrm...what do you consider to be sexual abuse? Im finding it very difficult to get my head around a 5yr old child abusing another one. Kids are curious and uninhibited and will think nothing of showing each other their bits or even touching them etc. My son came home from nursery one day exclaiming 'Agatha's winkie is funny...i showed her my willy and she said its bigger than Tom's'. Naturally we just pissed ourselves laughing.

Now - you're going to have to be a bit more specific here. Not because im a perv but because it would be helpful to know whether or not the other girl has actually abused your child, as a result of being abused herself, or whether or not you're a prude who is overreacting. The chances are your daughter has thought nothing odd about what happened and that it is entirely your reaction that has made it an issue.

Clarice i get where you're coming from but i don't want to be too specific about what's happened as much to protect child B is well as dd. I am sure something absolutely awful must be happening to child b and have passed on everything i know about her situation to her social worker. I don't want to give details but there's medical evidence and a series of unexplained health problems that my daughter has had over the last 6 months relating to bladder and bowel function. We're not talking about 2 kids "experimenting" ok?

Do you actually have any useful advice or experience?

I have no useful advice or experience only that it is very easy to convince someone they're a victim of something whereas their natural response may have been total indifference.

I am guessing that you suspect child B is being abused and has copied the behaviour on your DD?

I think you need to explain to your DD just how wrong it is to mess about with her baby sibling. The "telling you before she messes with the baby" is a bit weird! You need to tell her that she is NOT to mess with the baby. At the moment you are telling her that it is an ok thing to do but to inform you first!

Experimentation is normal for children so it's a difficult thing for you to explain to her. All child show each other their bits but she needs to learn the difference between that and what child B did.

Usually though with child on child abuse it's only characterised as abuse if one has power over the other, for eg, if one is a few years older.

I meant for her to tell me about those thoughts RATHER than messing with dd2, didn't word that terribly well sorry. She has been told in no uncertain terms NOT to do this to any other child, including her sister, I think her sister is the only person she feels safe enough with to attempt anything like this, dd's scared that children her age or older are planning to do it to her.
We have talked about the fact that her feelings about this maybe confusing but the RULES about who can touch who, (ie children should NOT be touching these parts of other children's bodies)are very clear.

Although thy are the same age, I think B did have a lot of power over dd, dd now thinks she won't have any friends again cos that's what B said would happen if she told anyone the "secret." I think there was a lot of "you're my best friend, this is what best friends do and i won't be your best friend any more if you don't."....psychological power rather than physical i guess...

anyway, have come to the conclusion that an internet chat forum is probably not really the best place to seek advice about this as the detail i would have to give could put the safety of my dd and child B at risk, was really worried when i posted here and feeling rather desperate....
Does anyone have any information about places i could get advice while i'm waiting for CAMHS refferral?
thanks

NSPCC
Childline?

I am sorry you are going through this.

Good suggestions from Fab there

clarice your posts here are pretty tactless, shame on you

OP, I hope your family gets the support it needs ASAP

There was a girl who tried this with me as a child, it went on a fair while and I told my guardian.

Before I told I had no idea what was going on was wrong especially as I had the "if you were actually my friend you would do it" but my GM told me that in no circumstances was anyone ever allowed to touch me there and I think watched me very closely.
Although I still remember it all to this day the way she drummed it in meant no further intervention was needed, however that obviously seems a completely different case from your DD.

I am very sorry you haven't had more useful information but I agree with FAB and think you should call NSPCC, they should at least be able to give you the information needed.

Hello needadvice

I am really so very sorry for your DD and your family as well as the other little girl involved in this situation.

Childline is part of the nspcc but I believe the nspcc have their own helpline that you can call and should be able to give you some more information or advice. Do you know how long it will take for Social services to contact you? Have you taken your DD to the GP? They also might be able to suggest either national or local support/ assistance that you can access.

Your poor daughter

Posted too soon . . .

and the other little girl. I hope they get the help they both need and come out as unscathed as they can. What a nightmare.

What's so wrong with what Clarice said?

have phoned nspcc but i think they're more about reporting and protecting children than dealing with the aftermath. She went to gp and then had further child protection examination day afer disclosure 3 weeks ago. It is a total nightmare yes but have found some useful stuff online this evening, i know what clarice is getting at, we underplayed it at first (although acted immediately to inform school where it was happening and social services) it was dds behaviour that led us to the conclusion she was badly affected, not our behaviour towards her iykwim.
The only way is up from here though right? Least she's safe now....

do you have a social worker involved your end? someone you could ring for advice about how to handle things like this?

i think that you are right in your second post tbh, just telling her that B was wrong to do what she did, and she must not do it to anyone else.

don't over-do it though, just a simple "no DD, it's not ok to do that" should sufice.
sometimes we do overplay things and make them into too big a deal for young children and then it is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy iyswim?

keep an eye on her, remind her she can talk to you whatever she is feeling, and stop any behaviour with her sister before it happens... but low-key. don't make it a big issue

my own DD had something similar happen with a boy at School, she was slightly older in that it started at 6/7 though from what you say, thankfully to a much lesser degree, it did traumatise her though, but along with a lot of other stuff that went on too.

We found the School Counselling service to be a brilliant help, it gave DD somewhere she could go & let of steam & talk if she choose without the obvious upset it causes us to hear it - regardless of how calm we keep, kids can sense our feelings & it doesn't really help them:(

I'm presuming your own DD is a t School, so ask there about the Counselling service, there will be a trained Child Phsyc who visits the local Schools on certain days - & if the incidents didn't happen in School & they know - I would also advise speaking with her Teacher too - she can keep an eye on her & help stop her continuing the abuse she's learnt with other kids at School - its a bit like rot, sadly it spreads if not checked :( - this happened a little with my DDs friends - though I'm pleased to say that a year or so down the line, its almost forgotten, all back to normal & hasn't seemed to damage her in any way at all :)

Theres also a fine line with young kids, where as you making an issue of it with her actions towards your younger DD, it can become attention seeking behaviour & end up with her doing it more - its a very difficult one to balance I'm afraid, so the counselling service will be able to help you there too -

you could also speak with your local Childrens Information Service - they might be able to offer you other advice on other places to go for help too

I feel for you & wish you & your DD the best of luck :)

Just spotted your update saying you HAVE spoken with the School - I found the counselling wasn't offered when I reported my DDs incidents - its an outside body rather than the School itself - it was only when I found out it existed from a friend whose kids at another ~School had cause to use the service that I went back & asked & was then given a number to ring - good luck

OMG what an awful situation for all concerned. where and when was the abuse happeneing - i am wondering - on play dates, at school, how can two 5 year olds be alone unsupervised long enough and frequently enough for something so awful to have been going on.

How's your DD today?

Thanks for asking WGME, She's been slightly better, she's talking about her feelings and the angry/scared periods seem to be getting less. Bedtime is an absolute nightmare.

ashamedandconfuse, at school, mainly lunchtimes where supervision was lax (though it's been significantly improved now!) and on 1 playdate at our house the week before she disclosed, i have avoided playdates with B because i felt she was domineering of dd and they always seemed to wind each other up to fever pitch whenever we meet on way to school etc. That playdate was the only time they've been alone outside school since before dd thinks abuse started (thank goodness).

Hi just wanted to say my dc had a similar thing happen - in our case it was a one off but caused her some injuries at 3 years old.

Was absolutely devastating to me. How are you feeling?

I think the hardest thing was the complete lack of support for us, but also that it's not something you can talk to your friends about. There is also the worry about leaving them at school. Mine is 6 now but I still worry about it, as the other child is at the same school.

I ended up having to back out of the friendship group i was in which left us both quite isolated.

We were told it wasn't a social services issue and that it couldn't be considered to be sexual abuse because of the ages of the dcs. As such we were offered no support at all.

Time does heal to some extent - I'm fortunate in that because mine was only three they don't remember the incident.

Sorry - not really offering you any help here am I. But if you want to chat would be happy to listen. I think what others have said is probably good advice, in that just treat it as any other sort of anti social behaviour and give a firm "no we don't do that".

Glad she's doing ok. I think it's probably fortunate that she is so young so hopefully the memory will fade.

That must have been horrible mum68. Was the other child 3 as well?