Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Children's health

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

craniosacral therapy in north london?

26 replies

kittycatlover · 24/09/2010 17:46

Can anyone recommend a good craniosacral therapist in North London - around the Highbury/Islington/Hackney area would be good.
A breastfeeding counsellor told me that my LO's neck and jaw are stiff and that he could benefit from therapy. He also cries a lot. Has anyone else had good results following treatment?

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
AntonSakker · 27/09/2010 12:18

I would seriously take a step back and look at craniosacral before undergoing any treatments.

The ASA recently published its findings into the claims made by the CranioSacral Therapy Association and have found that there is no evidence to back up the claims that it can treat any of the conditions they claim to help.

www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-and-ASA-action/Adjudications/2010/9/Craniosacral-Therapy-Association/TF_ADJ_49005.aspx

The CranioSacral Therapy Association even said they wouldn't hold out any prospect of a cure from CST treatment.

I'm not sure what medical experience you 'counsellor' has, but I'd strongly suggest talking to a doctor first.

indigobarbie · 28/09/2010 12:57

What about an osteopath?

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 28/09/2010 13:10

oh yes, an osteopath. I can recommend a good one in Barnsbury?

kittycatlover · 10/10/2010 22:08

Yes, actually having done a bit of research I think it is a cranial osteopath that we want. Can you remember the name of the one in Barnsbury?

OP posts:
WashIrving22 · 10/10/2010 22:20

There is the Foundation for Pediatric Osteopathy in Farringdon - they are amazing. Am not sure of the science behind it all but both my sons were like different babies after I took them there, DS2 particularly. He went from being a very screamy baby, who was really not as happy as he should have been, to a totally relaxed one after 3 or 4 treatments.

The place is run as a charitable foundation, so you pay as much as you can afford for the treatments. The guide is £35 per session IIRC though.

The website is www.fpo.org.uk.

Jacksmybaby · 11/10/2010 11:38

Yes we went to the same place as WashIrving, not really sure if it helped or if DS just grew out of his colicky phase naturally, but at least we felt we were doing something and it didn't do any harm!

onetowatch · 11/10/2010 15:11

think we went to FPO as washirving, definitely was a charity place in a slightly scruffy building but people were amazing. dd needed it after traumatic forceps birth, after one visit she was much changed. if it's the same place they are all cranial osteopaths doing their Masters Degree in paedeatric cranial osteopathy, so you get fully qualified people who are supervised by tutors. We paid £50 donation, and were pleased to because then the centre could help others who had to bring their children in frequently.

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 13/10/2010 22:21

Sorry for late reply - it's Emily in Barnsbury but I paid more - £50 I think?

redruby · 16/10/2010 10:39

There is a woman in Kilburn called Francois Wright Brown who used to have a practice on Harley St, has many years experience working with babeis, who I have seen myself and who I would take my son to if my husband would agree (he is very skeptical and has said NO!) She charges £45 for a session with Babies. Mobile: 07946 625 767 nearest Tube Brondesbury or Kilburn x

DBennett · 16/10/2010 11:55

It might be worth repeating that there is very little reason to think that cranial osteopathy can work.

And when it is tested it shows no effectiveness.

DBennett · 16/10/2010 11:55

It might be worth repeating that there is very little reason to think that cranial osteopathy can work.

And when it is tested it shows no effectiveness.

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 16/10/2010 21:43

There's plenty of clinical evidence (ie patient gets better / pain goes away etc) but as osteopaths aren't very good at conducting scientific clinical trials (research isn't everyone's thing and only a few osteopaths are actually interested in / have the time to do trials that are big enough to count as 'scientific evidence', there is virtually nothing written down. Hence there is no evidence. It's not that it doesn't work - no-one has proved it does on paper on a scale that is considered to be sifficient evidence. Because of that I believe that osteos are not allowed to claim that they can help with any particular condition as there is nothing in writing to back it up.

DBennett · 16/10/2010 23:24

We should be clear that we recognise the difference between oseteopathy and cranial osteopathy (perhaps better known as craniosacral therapy).

Both have has dozens of research studies published but have tended to be very poor.

Osteopathy has demonstrated decent but not extraordinary effectiveness for chronic lower back pain for example.

Cranial osteopathy is a different matter.
Practitioners of this have contented themselves with very poor quality work, which is no easier or cheaper to do than using better methodology.

But without that level of investigation, no-one can know if it works.

An individual is very vulnerable to a bunch of cognitive biases which lead any anecdote to be unreliable.

It is nearly impossible for any individual to account for:

Natural history
Regression to the mean
Hawthorne effect
Memory liabilities
Experimenter/observer bias
Placebo effect

Thus, trials need to be done.

Before we have evidence it's probably unethical to make claims a therapy.
And IMO thoroughly unethical to profit from them.

Especially when prior plausibility is so low

Southerland and Upledger thought that bones in the skull has a natural repository rhythm and that gentle rubbing could improve this to avoid or cure illness.

This is in defiance of human anatomy and physiology.

No reason to think it might work.
No evidence that says it does.

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 17/10/2010 07:58

Mmmm. I agree with some of what you said but not all.

Cranial osteopathy and craniosacral therapy are not the same at all. They are totally different disciplines, different ways of working and totally different training. That's very important to note.

With regards to poor 'trials' etc - I totally agree with you. There need to be trials and properly conducted ones. There are a very small handful of papers that stand up as well as you would expect a small handful of papers to stand up in the mainstream scientific world. In the large my experience of scientific papers has been very mixed - large numbers of crap and large numbers of good. The sheer volume, competitions and strive for decent work improves the general quality of work done.

Osteopaths and homeopaths plus others I'm sure, in the large, are not research scientists, they have entered their field for a different reason. research is not everyone's cup of tea. BUT I do agree that it does need to be done.

The placebo effect is an interesting one. It is well documented that there is one - that's great isn't it?? It's also noted in traditional medicine and is a fundamental part of the human so to speak. That's not to say medicine doesn't work either where the placebo effect has occurred.

What do you think of massage? There is a very strong anatomical and physiological basis for that but I don't know if there is any research to prove it works?

Regarding sutherland and upledger - I don't know much about upledger at all but in terms of sutherlands approach, I think the term 'gentle rubbing' couldn't be further from the mark. I think that when a medic explains what treatment they are giving and why, they use easy to understand language and don't go in to all their knowledge and details as it would go straight over the patients head. I suspect you have only 'heard' the easy to understand language with no first hand experience as a practitioner?

DBennett · 17/10/2010 10:12

"Osteopaths and homeopaths plus others I'm sure, in the large, are not research scientists, they have entered their field for a different reason. research is not everyone's cup of tea. BUT I do agree that it does need to be done."

And shouldn't be ignored when it is done.

And the state of the evidence is that homeopathic therapies shouldn't be on the NHS and probably shouldn't be allowed to be sold under advertising standards legislation.

Osteopaths should probably limit themselves to shoulder and back pain.

"What do you think of massage? There is a very strong anatomical and physiological basis for that but I don't know if there is any research to prove it works?"

Lots of evidence for massage, not least as in lots of thw world it is done by regulated healthcare practitioner.

There's evidence for around 50 conditions with massage but a lot of it is mixed.

Seems to work well for:

Anxiety
Quality of life in HIV (no disease change)
Back pain
Constipation
Depression
Pain and anxiety in labour
Musculoskeletal pain
Shoulder pain

Definetly doesn't work in:

Eczema
Growth in pre/full term infants

As for craniosacral therapy, perhaps I was unclear.
There is no rhythmic movement of the skull.
Thus it can't be altered.
There is no movement of the plates in the skull (without fracture anyways).

Craniosacral therapy in implausible.
And when tested, fails to demonstrate effectiveness.

3thumbedwitch · 17/10/2010 10:17

cranial osteopathy worked brilliantly well for my DS - reduced the ridged bump in his forehead, got him to relax his R arm, generally helped him be a more relaxed baby.

It is quite possible to have tensions in the membranes over the skull bones - creating quite unpleasant pressure. These soft tissues can be released, giving relief to the pressure.

I can't help with one in N London - the one I used was in NW Surrey and she was an absolute star.

DBennett · 17/10/2010 13:42

Setting aside how unreliable human anecdotes are, what membranes are you talking about.

There are several layers skinside of the skull, I'm not they can be described as membranes and I'm not sure they can have excessive tension.

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 17/10/2010 20:06
  • incidently, massage is just one of the techniques that osteopaths use -

'There are several layers skinside of the skull, I'm not they can be described as membranes and I'm not sure they can have excessive tension' - I think that's worth remembering DBennet.

We are all learning all of the time and it is quite clear that we only 'know' a relatively tiny amount about our environment and the organisms within it. The old saying - the more you do know, the more you realise that you don't.

You are clearly in a bit of a tizz about this but the fact remains that people are free to explore all avenues that they wish to and I really can't believe that with osteopathy / cranial osteopathy / craniosacral therapy / homeopathy that people seekingh treatment would persist if they weren't getting any results.

I know for myself that I had crippling back pain for over a year and pounding headaches and being a hard core physiologist was appalled with myself for considering osteopathy. I thought my aura would get polished and that would be it. I was very cynical but much to my horror and delight, I found that after 2 sessions, one week apart, I was pretty much normal. Having quizzed the osteopath while she worked on me, the anatomical and physiological reasoning behind what she was doing made perfect sense to me. The only variable was whether or not she had assessed me 'correctly' and treated me appropriately and by the results that were achieved, it seemed likely that she had.

It does vary from practitioner to practitioner I have found but having found one that seems to understand my body and how it works, I find benefit well worthy of my time and money, I am happy to pop in if I need to. There is no direct debit arrangement and I only go if I want to. I'd be mad not to make use of the treatment if I need to.

There are some disciplines that I'd be less inclined to explore but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything in them. I can't say they don't work, or that they do. I have no training in them and no experience as a patient in them.

DBennett · 17/10/2010 20:52

Human experience is not a good method for determining a medical treatments effectiveness.

If this wasn't clear from my list of errors we all are liable to make, surely it's obvious from all pre-enlightenment therapies.

Leeches, miasmal and humoural medicine persisted despite being actively harmful.

And, as I said earlier, osteopathy had demonstrated benefits in lower back pain and is very different from craniosacral therapy.

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 17/10/2010 21:03

but all treatment from any discipline (including medicine) aims to do, is to improve the quality of life.

That makes it very much the business of the person being treated to judge - whether it is subjective or otherwise.

Take the current medical philosophy behind treating cancer for example - it's all based around the quality of life these days. Results of scans etc to determine if the 'drugs are working' or not is only a small part of the treatment pan - the majority is made up of how the patient is feeling and how well they seem. All very unscientific indeed one might say. But very important.

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 17/10/2010 21:06

...because everyone responds differently to different drugs and is affected differently by them - different side effects, different efficacy etc.

You go to a GP and he/she will change your drugs in response to 'how you are getting on with them' and something can be working clinically but if it's making your life miserable etc, it just might not be worth it.

That is how we all base our choices on treatment regardless of where it comes from surely?

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 17/10/2010 21:15

I think what I'm trying to say is that medicine, complementary and alternative therapies are all ultimately treating people, not just 'n' numbers.

I do think research is absolutely invaluable and essential to our progress but I don't think that is holds all the answers. It probably never will. There is too much uknown. So much we don't understand. The open mind can learn the unexpected though.

It is through repetition that we learn to trust things in our enironment. It's how children learn and we must never lose that - because it's then that we learn nothing. Any individual is as qualified to learn about healthcare treatments as any hard core scientist.

DBennett · 17/10/2010 21:26

Quality Of Life Years is a very good health economics term.

But as an outcome you still need to minimise sources of bias.

An individual cannot do that.

We're much too easily fooled.

RememberToPlaywiththeKids · 18/10/2010 07:44

Yes I agree and I think that is in part the difficulty. W

ith osteo / cranial osteopathy & craniosacral therapy, you are trying to measure a person working on a person rather than the efficacy of a reproducible product.

As you've already mentioned people are very variable and the same is also true for the practitioner.

Practitioners' ability is variable and their perception of what they can feel with their hands is very individual and is always improving with time and experience too.

Also you can take any individual problem e.g. back pain, headache, repeated ear infection, foot problems and no 2 people with the same problem will present in exactly the same way and therefore would have to be treated individually - ie no 2 treatments would be the same. I have also found that I can be treated differently on 2 consecutive visits depending on what's going on.

So with all that in mind - are you ever going to get a valid study done?

DBennett · 18/10/2010 10:38

The short answer is yes.

All the things you listed are no different from factors research methodology deals with every day.

Want to know which surgery works best, you have to deal with variation amount surgeons.

Want to know how well headaches are diagnosed you need to measure practitioner variability of history taking and analytical skills.

Variability of treatment, a common misunderstanding when it comes to alternative medicine, is easy to.
The practitioner can be as variable as they want, but with only half the patients in a randomly controlled study.

In practical terms the study is the easy thing to do.

Getting people to listen to and accept it's findings over their personnel experience is much harder.