Autumn Term at the Chalet School

[Vintagejazz]

Just starting a new thread here as I can't spot a new one.

So my lambs feel free to keep spreading the hanes, but watch the slang!

I have been entertaining myself choreographing a new folk dance for our next party.
It is called "Humping the Kapok".

Poor DS, Lonny. Did you explain, or would that just have made it even worse? ("I'm off to a rave. Coming, Nell?")

On the 'n' word in rap, and reclamation of terms of offence more generally: I'm open to persuasion, mostly. I certainly use some reclaimed terms to describe my own bent sexuality, for example. But I'm cautious about the context when I use them - I know some people who don't like to hear them, and I also know people who don't have the same 'right of reclaim' can get confused (Richard Madeley, I'm looking at you) - and there are some I won't personally use at all. I suppose since I'm not committing my language to popular music which can't gauge its audience on a case-by-case basis, nobody cares.

I kinda think white people probably ought to err on the side of caution. So if I were reproducing the CS books for a child audience, I'd simply take out those phrases which are easily replaced and may be 'representative of their time' but may also prematurely remind some potential readers that this is a series/time in history from which they're implicitly excluded. I can't quite be PC gorn mad because I'm not fussed about taking the smoking out. (Is it only me who jumps a bit when Miss Annersley smokes, though? The rest of them I barely notice it, but somehow I am v shocked at Miss A!)

Emily 'Humping the Kapok' definitely belongs on youtube. Definitely.

Oh and the Pfeiffens! One thing I do really like is a bit in whichever is the one that Jo acquires Rufus: Madge is all 'how could the family who own Zita (??name?) possibly be so cruel?' and Marie is looking at her and silently thinking 'lady, you haven't got a clue'. Or something along those lines. It's an interesting moment, I think, and a commendable one. Is Anna a Pfeiffen? I think she is... What about Rosa?

Early on EBD feels more reasonable about the happy serving wenches: Marie is really pleased to be at the CS because Madge pays well and is a kinder employer than some of her friends have. That makes sense, even if it's a touch idealised. But later on, when Anna turns down a marriage proposal because she's so devoted to serving Joey? Nah.

nell I think it's high time your language was committed to popular music though. Hump my Kapok up needs lyrics.... Just saying...

I agree it's all about audience context - and when you can't control your audience you should err on the side of caution, so certain phrases should be edited out. But obviously it has to be lightly done. I read a Famous Five book in the library a while back and it had been so modernised as to make it nonsensical. And of course we all know about the state of the Chalet School in Armada.

As for the Pfeiffins! They're all Pfeiffins. Even in Wales. They have Welsh names but they're really Pfeiffin refugees trying to fit in, look you bach.

I agree that the early depictions of happy serving girls are more believable. Perhaps part of the problem is that none of the domestics who stay with the school are ever developed as real characters in any way. So it's fair enough when the servants are simply walk-on cast members, like those of the girls we hardly see and who only get a mention or two. Fair enough that they're 2-D sketches based on stereotypes. But those who stay don't get any depth to their characters, and I think that's one of the reasons it all goes wrong. There's something early on about the Pfeiffen children being the earliest playmates of the Russells, but that's never put into context with any detail of who they are, or Pfeiffen parenting plots or anything. We simply never get to see them as people, and it doesn't work. It's not just Anna's devotion that makes her un-believable. It's the fact that there's nothing else to her at all.

On class, how did Biddy become part of the school proper? When she's first adopted isn't there a plan to send her to the local school, then pay for her to have training at something? So when does she become a proper CS girl, and why?

In my latest non-CS girls' school story discovery, I've just read E.M. Channon's Expelled from St Madern's and Her Second Chance. If you're after something a little different in school stories, I recommend them most highly. In Her Second Chance the school starts a Guide company, and the headmistress gleefully reassures a snobbish parent that only girls connected with the school will be allowed to join - keeping quiet about the fact that servants' and gardeners' children will be Guiding along with the best of em. OK, so the children weren't allowed in the school itself, but for 1929 I don't think that's bad.

I'm envious of those of you with DDs who will actually read the Chalet School. Neither of mine were in the least interested. Maybe it was something I did wrong? Did I feed them on too much shop-bought cake thereby ruining their palates for the finer things in literature as in life? DD1 wouldn't read them at all, and DD2 only when she got old enough to take the piss out of me for liking them. So, sadly, I never had to worry about when to let them loose with the hardbacks. Had I needed to make that decision, I think I'd have waited till they were old enough to have the discussion about changing language and changing values.

Part of the dance involves a Morris style routine with Crossed Plumeaux (aka feather dusters) and I am currently working on Fancy Twists.

Emily that's devotion!

Lonny was it the Famous Five who got renamed to things like Pippa, or something? I read that somewhere... Quite possibly the Daily Fail...

Arf at "they're all Pfeiffens". What, even Gwladys with her club foot and her lack of manners befitting a parlour maid? mornington is exactly right about part of the problem being the lack of any character development. Definitely a missed opportunity to not feature the Pfeiffen children - EBD is clearly happy enough to declare that they're part of the Die Rosen nursery, but it's almost like she can't quite follow through on it. (Although, ugh: it would be a whole lot more pages of that dubious toddler-talk...)

Biddy I think is definitely the most interesting character in terms of class, because she is the barefoot wild Irish girl stereotype when she turns up, but is later unquestioningly accepted as a mistress and Frau Doktor just as much as any other. IIRC they realised she was too clever for the village school, plus she had dainty manners learned from her mother's employer (Miss Honora?) if you remember... It is all a bit sketchy, not least the odd 'adoption by Guides' thing, and it's also never quite clear where her home is when the School is closed. The Russells say they'll put her through uni if she doesn't win a scholarship. I often wonder how Biddy feels as the recipient of such explicit charity - she always seems to be really comfortable with it, never seeming to feel herself any less than the rest of her crowd.
I suppose also though that she's actually not that exceptional - Juliet Carrick is also effectively a charity pupil, I suppose, and there are others over the years. There are a couple in Oberland (Nell Randolph and I think Anita Eltringham) and the staff decide not to mention this because they don't yet know what the non-Chalet girls are like; if it had only been Chaletians, they wouldn't have minded because they know that true CS girls don't care about these things.

I suppose snobbery or the lack thereof is really tested when the poor are insufficiently humble, which is why Joan Baker is much more interesting than Ros Lilley.

Not long ago, we were talking about class and Joan Baker and someone commented that her name is a definite indicator of her class. I'm curious as to what, if anything, that means about Joan Bertram?
Also, on gardeners: Griffith Griffiths (or is it Evan Evans?) is head gardener at Plas Howells and seems very much a working class character. Evvy the gardening mistress is head gardener at Les Arbres and I don't think is supposed to be a working class character. Is there any logic to this or is it just the truth that gardening was kind of a cross-class job?
And finally! Why do the Bettanys seem so wealthy? I never got the impression Dick's job was an especially impressive one!

There are a couple of other long-term characters who don't get any development, too: thinking particularly of Jeanne de Lachenais (I feel that I keep harping on about this, but it is so unfair! She has the same length of tenure as Hilda, but she remains the same undeveloped handful of stereotypes as Mlle Berné), and Matey, to a point - I suppose you could say her sister dying is her moment, but it's a bloody long time coming and she has to endure years of randomly changing her identity first. Also "Nurse", who is presumably always there but seems only to appear every ten books or so!

Nita. Nita. Bloody autocorrect.

Evvy the gardening mistress has a degree in pure science from Holloway iirc. I always got the impression she was only working because of the war, and that if the war hadn't come she would have been some sort of lady garden designer wafting about placing pergolas. But then the war came and she became a sort of über-Land Girl, found she quite liked working, then stayed with the school.

Evan Evans Griffiths Girffiths look you was a proper hoary handed son of the soil, in contrast.

I am very fond of ill-mannered Gwladys and frequently chortle at the fact EBD thinks the fact help was so hard to get during and after the war was so important she has to mention it a squill ion times and illustrate it with Gwladys. It's a story for kids! They don't care if it's hard to hire servants!

Middle-class writers in the 1930s and '40s were OBSESSED with the difficulty of hiring and keeping good servants. Or the 'servant problem' as they liked to call it. Reads very oddly now.

Slightly [shocked] at the discovery that many of the CS novels included 'working like a n-r'... having read most of them only in Armada I've never seen this. Though at least it implies that black people had a strong work ethic (or had no choice but to work hard).... it's a phrase that's offensive because of the terminology rather than the overt meaning, IMO.

Ikr, and the moment I stopped writing that and turned to Changes there was immediately a reference to Gwladys "stumping" around being accidentally uncouth. I wish they could have taken Gwladys to Switzerland, help being hard to come by there also. And Evan Evans Griffith Griffiths look you, why not? (I'm confusing myself now - does he in fact morph from EE into GG? He is definitely GG in the Island books but I know EE existed and I can't think who else he would have been.)

I don't understand why Evvy's science degree is mentioned, in Gay, mere pages away from all the angsting about who on earth will take botany in Nell's absence, and Hilary Burn offering to see what she can cover in terms of human biology, but nobody seems to suggest she might do it. Possibly too busy digging for victory?
She is definitely head gardener at Les Arbres before she joins the school in Exile, though - and continues this job alongside teaching after they all move to Armishire. (It's not clear why she then follows the school to St Briavel's - yes, I have looked for this.) So I'm not entirely convinced by the war-related explanation, cos to me it looks as though she must have been gardening professionally from before the war...

My copy of Joey Goes to the Oberland includes the words "two little n---- boys" despite being an Armada version published circa 1995 (cba to get up and check). So it wasn't all edited out.

Frau Mieders is also a foundation stone and is equally undeveloped. The most development either she or Mlle. Lachenais gets is the bit in Excitements where they both mention crying themselves to sleep with fear and homesickness in their first terms.

I took it as being a slavery reference, Irene. But, yeah, as far as I understand it's the n word that's offensive rather than the phrase itself.

Matey isn't undeveloped - she has the immortal spineless jellyfish line!

I was wondering about that one, Cheddar, so that's interesting. (Specifically, I was thinking that it's not quite as straightforward an edit as changing "working like a n-" to "working jolly hard", because it's the punchline isn't it - the anecdote about the boys covering themselves in shoe polish(?) is only made funny because it makes them 'look black'. On the whole, I think I'd just take the whole anecdote out, and I'm a bit surprised Armada didn't - they were happy to take other large chunks out, seemingly at random!)

I'd forgotten that line from Excitements. First reaction is "aww". Second is - wait, is this the 'poor tearful continental types with no stiff upper lip' line?

Nah, Matey is standard school-story trope tough no-nonsense matron! Apart from her frankly bizarre affection for Jo.

"Working like a n----r is in my Armada Eustacia too, said by Mary Burnett, current HG about getting ready for the sale.

Nell the Famous Five haven't been renamed (or not yet anyway) Pippa was one of the renaming of the twins in the adventurous four. I can't even see why they renamed the twins: their original names were Jill and Mary, trifle old fashioned perhaps, but nothing wrong with them, and one of the adventurous four books is set during WWII so totally appropriate for them to have names for that period too.
Fanny and Dick have been renamed Frannie (which I hate actually, Fran/Frances fine, but Frannie sounds terribly twee nickname that lasts till they're about 18 months before they've grown out of it, bit like Joshie for Joshua) and Rick, from Faraway tree.

Personally I would like the GGBP to remove one word things like n** which could be done easily. They could put it in their explanation if they want. My df used to say "working like a Trojan", which is one word change, or they could just have "working very hard". Not even as though the original phase is something they would have come across.
Not sure about long episodes though. Because I think once you get into someone deciding what is or isn't appropriate, it becomes a bit of a grey area-one person saying "that is fine, why on earth did you take it out" another saying "I find this really offensive, how dare you leave it in"!

I don't have a major issue with the servant depiction because actually we don't see much of it. I don't think at Mallory Towers/St Clares we see them at all, although they must have had them. To me it's a dated view of them, but not a majorly problematic one as it's only little side bits so that they rarely come out of the page as personalities.

I agree about the Miss A smoking, but the book that really makes me is the Blue Door Theatre set. From the first book the boys (I don't think the girls do) and smoking quite frequently, from I'd guess age about 14yo. I'm sure it was legal then, and I suspect the author, herself a child, was using it as a way of showing they'd grown older since the first perfomance, but it really jars me. It also really put dd2 off the books as she was totally disillusioned with these characters that she was looking up to suddenly doing something that (to her) is illegal and wrong.

I'd be interested to see what ds (7yo) would make of that actually. Maybe I'll try that as his next bedtime book. He's got very fixed ideas about smoking. Not sure where from, can only think it's something said at school, because we haven't discussed it at home particularly.
I remember when he was about 5yo we were sitting in the window at McDonalds. A group of teens came out and a couple lit up as they exitted. He looked at me with shocked eyes and said "Shall we go and tell them that smoking kills them and will make them ill". So I said they probably were aware of that. To which he responded with "Why on earth are they doing it then? Can I go and ask them?" He still has a very similar response to anyone smoking.

No, you're right EE and GG are two separate characters (I nearly typed 'distinct', but that they are not, look you - in fact, that's where your toes turn in.)

Anna and the Pferrian, whatever,are all cousins I think.

I love the stereotypes she uses.

All the French people are emotional, chik, dark and have expressive hand gestures.

All the Prussians are rude

All the servants are devoted,

All the men/boys are good at maths and engineering,

morning my dds are the same. Just snort In derision at the books and then start calling each other smug prigs etc.

I blame the shop brought cake And the face powder.

What if you changed the line to "two little black boys"? Is that offensive? I mean, if they'd painted themselves green it would still be funny, they aren't trying to dress up in blackface or anything, they just find some stove blacking and paint themselves with it. Or am I being naive? Thinking now of Elsie/Margia etc painting themselves as "Red Indians" in Oberammergau, or Joyce etc dressing up as "savages" (not quite sure whether they mean Maoris there or what). I suppose what I'm trying to say is that on those occasions, it is clear what the girls are trying to do. I'm not sure Charles and Mike were aiming to look like black people, just that they wanted to paint themselves black and go and scare the girls. I hope I'm not being offensive! I think if the boys had gone 'let's dress up like n---s' then it would be different, but as it is it's a bit ambiguous. On that subject, what do you think about the term 'savages' as used by Joyce etc in Lintons?

DeWee, bless your DS wanting to tell people that smoking kills them and makes them ill!

Nell, I do feel that Matey is a bit more developed - thinking of the bits in Jo Returns when she criticises Jo's first book and then later discusses Mademoiselle's illness, and the bit in one of the books when she gets locked in a bathroom, plus Excitements and Highland Twins and so on. She is definitely a stereotype, but she's also quite a personality, which is not the case with either Frau Mieders or Mlle de Lachenais.

Thebody, all the Austrians think the English are mad!

You forgot the French Fingers thebody my lamb. Which are a) sadly not a biscuit and b) able to be inherited and c) not really French at all as Joey sometimes has them...