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MNers without children

This board is primarily for MNers without children - others are welcome to post but please be respectful

Original poster

"Losing a voice" bit of a rant...

31 replies

rtp1988 · 19/12/2023 07:34

I think I'm being overly sensitive about this but I want to rant and I feel like someone on the Childfree board will understand!

I (try to) do a lot at work to support the development of other women (I'm reasonably senior) but I'm finding this harder and harder as a non-parent.

For example, I was suggested to be someone's line manager but another woman was also suggested alongside me "in case the person wants a working mum" as a manager. Would they do that if it was any other personal characteristic?!

Then, in a discussion about helping women who are juggling childcare responsibilities with workloads I suggested we help reduce one women's workloads to help her juggle her role more successfully and I got immediately shot down in a tone of "you don't understand" by two mothers who went on for a good 5 minutes about how hard it is juggling work, with dinner/bedtime routines, then logging on in the evening. So surely reducing workloads would help her then?!

I could list several other examples and I hate how much it is getting to me!

I've dropped out of a work "woman's group" as I found it was mainly centered around childcare challenges.

I really feel like I've lost a voice at work without having a child.

Am I completely alone feeling like this? Would it be a reasonable thing to raise with my manager? Or do I just sound like I'm being a bit overly sensitive?!

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 19/12/2023 07:46

No that does sound pretty dismissive.

Essentially in your workplace you're only a woman if you're a parent, and only women are parents. It sounds as if when you speak your colleagues have pegged you as 'childless person' rather than 'woman'. That sounds like a form of sex discrimination.

Having a co-manager suggested for you is quite shocking, actually.

Women are not immune from sexist behaviour or views.

I think I would push back on the co-manager idea, because that speaks to your competence. I might have stuck it out at the network to try and provide a balance I suppose.

DinkyDonkey2018 · 19/12/2023 08:07

There are maybe a few things to consider here. The first being line managed by someone who has kids. It's not uncommon for female line managers without kids to not be understanding about caring responsibilities and how hard it can be. Perhaps having someone manage them who has kids, they'd be able to open up and vent with them about these issues when needed. This isn't to say you wouldn't be understanding, but it can be quite nice speaking to someone who's been/is going through similar.

Are all of the women you work around parents? Sometimes, the answer isn't reducing their workloads as that might put them at a disadvantage of progressing. Another option could be structuring the work priorities in a way that doesn't require evening work, and that could include fairer distribution of work across the team or a more strategic discussion about how work in general is impacting on people's work/life balance (whether child free or not).

I wouldn't completely dismiss the work because you're child free and feeling like you've lost your voice in that space. Maybe it's about seeing these issues and thinking a bit outside the box to help solve them. Speakingnto your line manager would be a good shout as you shouldn't feel like this, and you've obviously got a passion and drive for this type of work.

musixa · 19/12/2023 08:10

It's not uncommon for female line managers without kids to not be understanding about caring responsibilities and how hard it can be. Perhaps having someone manage them who has kids, they'd be able to open up and vent with them about these issues when needed.

Why do you specify female line managers here?

nettie434 · 19/12/2023 08:17

I'd be hurt if it was suggested that I needed someoņe with children to help me manage someone with children. I can see why you feel your voice is being lost.

DinkyDonkey2018 · 19/12/2023 08:17

musixa · 19/12/2023 08:10

It's not uncommon for female line managers without kids to not be understanding about caring responsibilities and how hard it can be. Perhaps having someone manage them who has kids, they'd be able to open up and vent with them about these issues when needed.

Why do you specify female line managers here?

The OP is female, it's relating to her (a female) being overseen instead of as the sole line manager...

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/12/2023 08:29

@DinkyDonkey2018 you are being just as prejudiced as the OP's workplace.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/12/2023 08:30

Should male managers without children also be forced to have a co-manager, in case they don't understand?

IGotItFromAgnes · 19/12/2023 08:32

@DinkyDonkey2018 Actually I’ve heard more complaints from my colleagues about the managers with children - they manage to juggle childcare / have older children / have a SAHP so can’t understand why others have issues…

Neitheronethingnortheother · 19/12/2023 08:35

It's not uncommon for female line managers without kids to not be understanding about caring responsibilities and how hard it can be.

I manage multiple parents, I'm incredibly flexible and understanding with them. I've seen parents who have been horrible managers to parents - "I managed to do this so I don't know why you cant" and parents who have been great managers to parents. I've seen childfree managers who have been great managers to parents and childfree managers who have been terrible managers to parents

The defining factor is actually whether they are a good manager generally or not, not whether they have managed to carry a baby to full term or not.

And it's interesting how this never carries over to other senarios.

As a mixed race, disabled, infertile woman it's never once been considered that I would be better managed by someone mixed race, disabled or who has been through fertility treatment or who is infertile. In fact I've had some horrifically insensitive managers who are parents or able bodied or white.

And yet its only ever childfree managers, and only ever female childfree managers, who get told that they are bad managers because of this both on mumsnet and in real life. Its just another way of putting down female managers and the fact that some women with children go along with this form of discrimination is something they should be ashamed of.

Neitheronethingnortheother · 19/12/2023 08:39

Perhaps having someone manage them who has kids, they'd be able to open up and vent with them about these issues when needed. This isn't to say you wouldn't be understanding, but it can be quite nice speaking to someone who's been/is going through similar.

There is so much fucking irony about a parent coming on a thread where a childfree person has said

I want to rant and I feel like someone on the Childfree board will understand

And the parent wading in with their opinion on how parents find it quite nice speaking to someone who's been/is going through similar

So do childfree people yet here the parent is anyway.....

It never goes both ways does it...

DinkyDonkey2018 · 19/12/2023 09:00

Looks like I've ruffled some feathers, which wasn't my intent. There's all sorts to consider in these scenarios. I've not said OP is wrong in her thinking or feeling as she does and would again encourage her to speak with her LM about these issues. I've not been rude or dismissive or aggressive. I simply offered up various options that may not have been considered by the OP. It's never good not to consider other options and can benefit people greatly. I'm not too bothered whether it's taken on board or not, but if it is helpful to the OP in some capacity, that's great. If not, it's no skin off my back, and she can carry on as is.

Neitheronethingnortheother · 19/12/2023 09:05

DinkyDonkey2018 · 19/12/2023 09:00

Looks like I've ruffled some feathers, which wasn't my intent. There's all sorts to consider in these scenarios. I've not said OP is wrong in her thinking or feeling as she does and would again encourage her to speak with her LM about these issues. I've not been rude or dismissive or aggressive. I simply offered up various options that may not have been considered by the OP. It's never good not to consider other options and can benefit people greatly. I'm not too bothered whether it's taken on board or not, but if it is helpful to the OP in some capacity, that's great. If not, it's no skin off my back, and she can carry on as is.

It's never good not to consider other options and can benefit people greatly.

Perhaps you could try this off the back of the comments you have had on this thread? Or does this also only apply to childfree women?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/12/2023 09:09

It's not uncommon for female line managers without kids to not be understanding about caring responsibilities and how hard it can be.

it’ll be fine for me as a childless person to ask for a childless female line manager then won’t it as a mum wouldn’t understand the grief of being childless and how hard it can be?

or would that be just as bloody insulting??

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/12/2023 09:13

I've not been rude or dismissive

Yes, you have.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 19/12/2023 09:44

The first being line managed by someone who has kids. It's not uncommon for female line managers without kids to not be understanding about caring responsibilities and how hard it can be

Well if they aren't it's not for fucking lack of being told over and over again by parents how hard their lives are and how we ought to accommodate them, that's for sure.

SutWytTi · 19/12/2023 09:54

For example, I was suggested to be someone's line manager but another woman was also suggested alongside me "in case the person wants a working mum" as a manager. Would they do that if it was any other personal characteristic?! I would think this worthy of a complaint to be honest, that is not an OK thing to say to you.

Then, in a discussion about helping women who are juggling childcare responsibilities with workloads I suggested we help reduce one women's workloads to help her juggle her role more successfully and I got immediately shot down in a tone of "you don't understand" by two mothers who went on for a good 5 minutes about how hard it is juggling work, with dinner/bedtime routines, then logging on in the evening. So surely reducing workloads would help her then?! I think you were out of order here, as you are talking about removing work from the parent rather than looking for ways to help her manage the two pressures more successfully.

If you do a lot of the second type of thing, I can see why people may feel you are not very supportive of working parents/mothers.

I've dropped out of a work "woman's group" as I found it was mainly centered around childcare challenges. What do you feel is the priority issue for women in your workplace?

KimberleyClark · 19/12/2023 10:09

For example, I was suggested to be someone's line manager but another woman was also suggested alongside me "in case the person wants a working mum" as a manager. Would they do that if it was any other personal characteristic?!

This is really shocking. Honestly parents have no idea of the othering childless/childfree women face.

KimberleyClark · 19/12/2023 10:13

I've dropped out of a work "woman's group" as I found it was mainly centered around childcare challenges.

A Carers Network was set up at my last workplace, I was caring for my mother who had dementia so I signed up. But I also found it was centred around working parents and childcare.

Original poster
rtp1988 · 19/12/2023 10:26

Thank you all for your perspectives. Your replies have validated some of my thoughts which means I will at least discuss this at work.

One fact that I deliberately didn't mention at the start (because I didn't want it to sway opinions, people at work don't know and, actually, it shouldn't really matter anyway) is that I've been through several years of unsuccessful fertility treatment and pregnancy loss.

Fertility treatment is incredibly challenging to manage around work commitments and ploughing on at work whilst losing a pregnancy is also very hard.

I suspect some of my experiences are influencing how sensitive I am to these comments but I do also wonder whether we've almost got to a point where the only acceptable challenge to bring up at work is childcare related. When, actually, lots of women are dealing with all manner of challenges in their personal lives but all share a common goal of trying to balance that with trying to do a successful job at work.

OP posts:
CrispsandCheeseSandwich · 19/12/2023 10:28

Your first example is shocking and I'd complain about that.

Your second example you were suggesting removing work from mothers, which would presumably hamper their career progression. Plenty of women return from maternity leave to find their roles reduced under the guise of "helping", and it's not acceptable.
I think it's fair enough that that idea was shot down.

Original poster
rtp1988 · 19/12/2023 10:30

Also, I realise in my shorthand of typing that suggesting taking work off the colleague makes me sound like some sort of ruthless hard nosed female without any sort of empathy- which I don't think is the case!

In that particular example to be fair I didn't get much further into speaking before I got "jumped on" by the working mums.

But I think I could point to quite a lot of examples where I've actually had a really positive impact on supporting other women (working mums and otherwise) develop their careers around various challenges - which is also why I'm finding this situation so frustrating.

OP posts:
SutWytTi · 19/12/2023 11:23

rtp1988 · 19/12/2023 10:30

Also, I realise in my shorthand of typing that suggesting taking work off the colleague makes me sound like some sort of ruthless hard nosed female without any sort of empathy- which I don't think is the case!

In that particular example to be fair I didn't get much further into speaking before I got "jumped on" by the working mums.

But I think I could point to quite a lot of examples where I've actually had a really positive impact on supporting other women (working mums and otherwise) develop their careers around various challenges - which is also why I'm finding this situation so frustrating.

You posted So surely reducing workloads would help her then?!

But this would be making an adjustment to workload that implies she is not able to do the same work as someone without a child. If you suggested what you said you did then it is understandable it was jumped on.

IGotItFromAgnes · 19/12/2023 11:25

SutWytTi · 19/12/2023 11:23

You posted So surely reducing workloads would help her then?!

But this would be making an adjustment to workload that implies she is not able to do the same work as someone without a child. If you suggested what you said you did then it is understandable it was jumped on.

Show quote history

Surely if someone isn’t able to do all the work, for whatever reason, it’s helpful to have the workload reduced? Of course you’d need to discuss it with them and put support measures in place first, but you can’t just leave the work not to be done!

Original poster
rtp1988 · 19/12/2023 11:29

@SutWytTi my thought process was that by making her overall workloads more manageable it would be easier for her to juggle work and outside of work commitments. This can obviously be structured so that the tasks that are not developing her are passed on to someone else (who might find that a development opportunity) so that she can focus on the tasks that are supporting her development. Plus also possibly getting her better support in the role she's doing so that she can delegate work to others more easily.

Or, what would you suggest then?

(Btw in other examples I have a pretty decent record of bringing women back into more senior roles following their maternity leave and supporting them through a promotion)

OP posts:
recyclemeagain · 19/12/2023 11:45

First and foremost, I'm sorry to read about your losses OP. That will be a lot to manage while trying to work. I worked with 2 women who went through similar for many years. I do remember seeing how it impacted them. I will add both did go on to have healthy pregnancies and healthy babies many many years later. Many parents can well understand the othering etc because they haven't always been parents. This is why it's so important to not lump everyone under one label.
In terms of women managing parents, I have had many female managers.
I had one who had one child and wasn't a good manager- not cos of her child, just a poor manager to begin with. One who had no children and also a dreadful manager. Another who had one teenage child and very much the attitude of "well if I can manage it so can all mums". She seemed resentful of her child to be honest, horrible to work under. But then I had the loveliest and most amazing female manager! No children, in her 50s, married late into her 40s, and had the best attitude of all managers I've ever known! She struck a good balance of understanding and pragmatic. I loved working for her (as a mum of 2 myself) and I very much modelled her approach myself when I became a manager.
It should always be way more about the person, their attitude, their approach etc rather than parenting status. Nobody wants to work for a judgy defensive parent but equally nobody wants to work for a judgy defensive non-parent either. (Not meaning that you're judgy or defensive of course OP ❤️)