Nanny with own child -issues regarding extra hour pay

[julinka]

Hi everyone,
I hope I could get some help.I have been looking after a child since January and bring my boy with me,they are the same age,it has been going great but recently instead of 10 hours,it is becoming more like 11 hours every day and once a week 12 hours.When it happened initially I didn't ask to be paid extra as I felt so happy to have job and so on.Her husband is a builder and on 2-3 occasions it happened he was at home for a week as he didn't have a job.I would come bit later and instead of 10 hours I would do 5-6h.But never had an off day or anything.I am not getting paid on holidays and I have to pay my own tax and they only pay me 5 pound and hour.I decided to write her message when 3 days in row I did 12 hour shift.Then,I did mention to her I want to know in advance about hours as it affects our family life,plus get paid extra.I start 6.30pm and finish 7pm!Then nothing happened so I have sent an e-mail with my explanation and asking to be paid for extra hours.I was shocked to receive an e-mail saying we never agreed to do 10 hour shift(we had an oral arrangement),plus saying she thought the days her hubby is at home make up for those extra hours and then saying they haven't got much money when her hubby doesn't work(she has a very good job).And then suggested she would pay me for extra hours but would only pay me half the day when her hubby is off work(we agreed she would still pay full as it is the same in nursery you have to pay)I have spoken to few parents about it and I feel so used,especially I treat her child as my own.I do not know what else there is to do to make communication better.Any advice would be very much appreciated.Thanx J

Hopefully someone will be along soon re hours but would imagine it's a grey area if it's an oral agreement . That said if it was an oral arrangement that was for 10 hours a day and they vary it that sounds suspect but it's hard to prove if it's not written. Cab may be able to help

Paying your own tax is wrong- you are an employee (this has been done to death here before) and they are heading for a pack of trouble with hmrc if this gets discovered.

My gut feel is that you should look for something else as however nice child is they are taking the piss and it's not looking good given your attempts to communicate were rebuffed.

This is all wrong, you cannot be self employed especially when only working for one person!!! You should have a proper contract etc etc

Honestly I would start looking for another job as they don't seem to appreciate you.

If they never said it would be 10 hours what did they say?

You need to get a written contract or consider your position.

For future reference please use paragraphs and spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of another as your post is annoying to read.

You can't compare to nursery as they are a business and you are employed i.e. working reguarly for the same family and therefore not repsonsible for your tax.
However, if you had agreed 10 hours verbally this is a verbal contract and not a grey area BUT since they deny the agreement it would be hard to enforce.

If you really want to try and make this work (I wouldn't) ask in email/writing what hours they expect you to work. If they want infinite lieu time at their whim then it is up to you to accept this job/aggreement (duobt anyone else would) or not accept or negotiate something flexible that you are both happy with. And get a contract!!! It would be usual to agree that if working 10 hours and told to go home early to be paid for those hours and anything over 10 hours would be overtime (not traded off).

Not sure officaly how minimum wage rules work out if you bring your own child.
Anyway £5 seems low to me especially if they think that is a gross wage (though it isn't because they've paid it to you it is net). Perhaps it is down to location, qualifications, experience and 'nannyshare' type agreement.

They are also legally obligated to provide 5.6 weeks holiday that must be paid. Maybe they are just unaware of this and unluckily also mean. Direct them to hmrc website- i don't have a link!

Why do you not have a contract?
Why are you 'self-employed'? If it was your choice you can't have it both ways - self-employed people don't get paid holiday and are only paid for the hours worked. For future reference you can't be self-employed as a nanny although some nannies seem to 'prefer' it.

Nannying arrangements do often involve a little give/take but not to the extent of 2 hours unpaid overtime with no notice.

You should have a contract, with defined hours, pay (stated gross from which they are responsible for deducting tax/NI and which must be minimum wage), an overtime rate, paid holiday and a whole host of other things. Look on nannyjob for a sample contract or direct.gov for help writing your own.

If they don't do that I'd leave TBH. And then I'd report them to HMRC for employing you and not declaring it (start collecting evidence such as payslips to prove you were employed) which should land them with a nice big fine and backpayments, which is no more than they deserve [meanie emoticon]

How old are you?

Not only should they be deducting tax and NI from your salary, and paying it over on your behalf, they should be paying you minimum wage, which is £5.80 gross per hour if you are over 22. Even if you do bring your own child.

Plus what iiiiiii said about holiday - although the 5.6 weeks can include bank holidays.

If you do overtime, you should either get paid for it, or time off in lieu.

It doesn't matter if you don't have a written contract or not, you still have statutory rights.

Domestic employees get taken for a ride all the time by employers who either don't know the rules, or don't care.

How much do you want this job?

Thank you so much for all the replies.

And sorry for annoyingly long paragraph :-) this is the first time i am posting here.

After doing a research,I now admit I should have dealt with it differently but I naively believed we can have a more than working relationship as this is not a office job but childcare,and as I am a mother myself I would want that too.

There is no formal contract.I suppose I felt I am being given a favor as I bring my own child.

I have an experience working in primary schools as a TA,special needs etc.but this is the first job as a nanny after finishing my maternity leave.

I feel very disappointed and I am already looking for something else.I do feel being taken for granted.

I don't get paid for holiday,plus she tells me day before about taking a day off and didn't pay me for it!

Just to clarify:
On our first meeting I have been told it would be 7-5 job so 50 pounds a day.
However,I quickly realized she never gets home before 5 and it is more like 6,6.30,7.
As her husband was off a week I would do half day,so she claims those hours that I do not work would make up for the extra hours.

I am just wondering any other parents here,how do you deal with extra hours or if you do have to stay at home with your child,do you still pay nanny,how about bank holiday?

Thank you very much for your help

my advice is get a new job

you are being paid less than nmw and then have to deduct tax and ni (illegal to be se as a nanny in your job as permament nanny for one family)

illegal not to have a contract

why didnt you insist on a contract stating hours/days/pay/holidays etc - tbh you havent a leg to stand on without one

and to your last question, yes i do get paid forholidays and regardless if mb/db home i get paid

Frakkit

I am self employed as I thought this would be the best arrangement(which obviously is not)

We agreed on getting not being paid during half term,that's fine,is just the issues I mentioned regards extra hours and not being given enough notice.

I do feel might be best to stay until school finishes and then give them 6 week notice and start searching for a more appreciative family.

Thanx fo clarifying things.

i wouldnt give notice till you have a job tbh

i wouldnt give notice till you have a job tbh

Blondeshavemorefun

I am working on finding a new family.

I thought I had the oral contract.I was trying to be nice.

Not sure why it is illegal to be self employed,I found the information that it is normal to be but obviously this is the favour for the family not for me as i will not get paid for holidays.

That is what I thought.I will learn from these mistakes and will be wiser next time :-)

we all make mistakes, just learn from them

You agreed to take the job on a contract-less basis so it seems to me you are just as much at fault as your employers when it comes to skirting the law. The whole point of having a contract is so that there is no misunderstanding about the terms. Please do it right next time.

It's not normal to be - you don't take financial risks, you don't set your own hours, you don't direct your own work - so you fall more squarely into the 'employment' category.

Childminders are SE, nannies aren't. IMO it's much better (as you have more rights) to be employed.

Thing is you do have an oral contract of employment, so you have some rights, but when it comes to things like hours/overtime it becomes a bit 'he said, she said' and it's for those situations that you need a written statement of employment (or for SE people a contract for services).

You may have got confused with Childminders - they ARE self employed as they run a business from their home and can tax deduct certain expenses. As a nanny you can't deduct things like Household Expenditure (heating lighting, water rates) as you are not using Your home.

Not sure where you found information to say it was normal for a nanny to be self employed... suspect it may have been about Childminders.

Given what you are saying about the family, I'm afraid I would agree with the others that looking another job may be for the best. If you asked your current employer to change the way things are done... would they? I get the feeling they may just ask you to leave (hmm, that may be the thing to do once you line up another job).

6 weeks notice is a long time and given the lack of written contract will be hard to enforce. 1 week during first year of work is the minimum expected in the event of no written contract. See ACAS: Notice periods

You will probably want to use them as a reference (your next employers will most likely want to speak with them), so you need to aim to leave in such a way that they are reasonably happy about the situation. So you may well want to give them the notice you agreed to orally.

Is getting another job realistic in your area, are there enough jobs around which will accept someone with their own child?

I agreed to be self-employed because I wanted to make the family happy and make it easier for them.And as I mentioned I felt privileged I can bring my son with me.And she is a head-teacher so she gets half terms off and hence,I do not work.

I have got it probably confused with child-minding but it is not uncommon to be SE.

I do not believe it has been illegal,when doing my Tax return,everything was fine when it comes to nature of my "business".

But obviously this arrangement is not working and I am losing my motivation.

I thought I will give 6 week notice,to make it easier for the family but given how things are I might consider 2 week notice.

I though about the references nannynick,so hence 6 week notice.

We haven't agreed on any notice period yet,I was trying to give them time as I know is not easy to find a childcare(which they will probably find for themselves once I leave them)

I say look for a new job now go on websites such as www.childcare.co.uk (its really good)
don't tell your current employers you are looking for another job and i say give at least 2 weeks notice seen as you didnt have a written contract. carry on as normal with your employers so that you can get the reference that you deserve

Thank you jaz1234.

The only thing I worry that the new family will want to talk to my current and it might be before the notice period,so things could get worse.Mind you,she must know I am not happy as I mentioned and I might mention the reasons for me leaving.I think it is my right to get good reference,if I did a good job.

Julinka - it doesn't matter that you filled in return saying you are se as you aren't. If hmrc investigate they will penalise your employers for not withholding Paye etc and may also investigate you as even if mistake was made in good faith you still filed a return on wrong basis so there may be penalties.

Typed long post but it was lost but would echo nicks advice about thinking how to handle references. Also am sure other nannies will back this up, but contracts are essential as cover hours, holidays, overtime etc.