How much 'respect'/manners do you expect?

[lollipopmother]

I am slowly starting to doubt myself. I have two siblings ages 5 and 7 and to me they seriously lack manners and respect and because of this I have been trying to drill some into them and to an extent it's working, but I just wondered really whether this is normal, whether I'm expecting too much?

I'll give you some examples:
During the first meeting with the mum I suggested the boys try and play with some toys in the other room (as we had to speak a lot about contract and shifts etc), they broke one toy straight off. I then suggested they play in our (quite large) garden, they kicked two balls straight over the fence and threw the last ball over as well. I can put most of this down to overexuberance but in the hols I expect at least one broken toy a day - many times I've caught them forcing toys and playing much too rough with them and tbh I think they just don't respect the toys at all.

For the first couple of days they never (and I mean never) said please or thank you.

For the first 3 days when I opened the door to greet them they'd push around me and run into the house still in their shoes and then throw their coats and bags on my living room floor for me to pick up. On the 3rd day I stood like a rock infront of the door and one of them physically tried to push me out of the way!! They now know to take shoes off, hang up coats etc.

Up until last week when I imposed a new rule (contract has been in place for 11 weeks now) they never once replied to me when I said 'morning' at the door, they just walked past me completely silent. When they are picked up to go to school they do the same, don't say bye and get into the taxi without saying hello even to the driver. The new rule says they must greet both me and the driver and it's been successful I have to admit.

Is this normal for a 5 and 7y/o? I would be livid if my DD behaved like that but maybe I'm strict? There are things like getting down from the table before people have finished etc that I am strict about but I know other parents aren't ....

Lastly, they physically fight right infront of me and think nothing of it (they fought in the first week and do still every now and again). In fact, a couple of weekends ago I had my next door neighbours over for an hour whilst I was minding as it was their DDs 1st birthday (yes yes, I'm one of those CMs who have guests around when they're working!!) and the boys came into the room we were in and started physically fighting right infront of me, my DP and my guests - they'd never met them before so not only are the mindees fighting in someone elses house but they're also doing it in a room of adults they've never met! I found that amazingly disrespectful and my DP was livid, not to mention embarrassed.

It took me a while to loosen up with how roughly they play with eachother but I feel I'm less uptight now with their rough-and-tumble, they're boys after all so I should let them be boys when they're just playing, but fighting in someone elses house, infront of people they don't know, isn't right surely???

doing tea, back soon with thoughts

Please don't flame me, I feel like I'm in for a flaming . I just needed to get this off my chest really as it's been getting me down and I feel I should find out whether I'm expecting too much - I'm a new CM and DD is only 20m, all my other school-age mindees are mostly girls (just one boy) and they are all absolute darlings that I can 100% rely on to be perfectly behaved, be amazingly helpful and generally be totally gorgeous but as they're nearly all girls I wondered whether I'm just not cut out for looking after boys?

No, not normal and nothing to do with you.

Your rules and your approach sound very good. What do you do to sanction them for unacceptable behaviour like fighting?

If they're not getting good behaviour modelled at home and at school then the limited time that you have with them isn't going to do much unfortunately but don't beat yourself up about it. Just keep going as you are doing what you can.

I am not a mother with boys but my reaction is that they are trying to tell you and the world that they really don't want to be left with a CM - nothing whatsoever to do with you - they almost certainly don't want to be left with any childminder and are trying to see whether, if they behave badly enough, you'll kick them out and they'll be able to go home. You mention a taxi involved - are they with you for very long days then, with little parental care?

And no, I wouldn't have thought that this is normal at all and I feel for you having to deal with this situation. Perhaps time to have a conversation with the parents to see what's going on when thet are at home. Also to get the parents to reinforce your rules, the implication being that they will lose the CM place if their children don't improve their behaviour.

Sounds like you are being totally reasonable. I am not a CM but pick up neighbours boys a few days each week and keep them until she gets back from work. i too was amazed at the (lack) of manners. Helping themselves to biscuits and drinks, no pleases or thank yous, fighting and crying. however, one term in and they don't seem to object to my "rules" and told their mum they love coming to my house. In fact have said they would come every day if they could. As the psychologists say kid need boundaries and are much happier for knowing what they are.

My boys WOULD behave like this IF they thought they could get away with it...

They certainly don't at home (with the exception of the fighting thing...which sadly after years of exasperation about it I have accepted that it if fairly normal for brothers to beat the c**p out of each other regularly)

My 2 really would test you badly on all of the above things...and if they could get away with it they would!! Please don't assume its necessarily bad parenting...it could just be that they are testing you as a new carer!

Not that you are being unreasonable in wanting them to have good manners..just that its your house and your rules and its up to YOU to teach them to them.

I would be horrified if my ds ever acted like this. Does their mother see this/is she aware of it? I would think she'd be quite about it, right? Sounds like a handful, but that you're handling it very well. You sound like a good cm not to put up with it. Must be exhausting for you at the moment, though!

As for the guests... why the ? My cm has friends with dc or mindees over sometimes and I'm absolutely fine with it (why shouldn't she/you have visitors?). She doesn't have smokers over and it's always lovely people that she knows and trusts. I've met them, too.

No dont blame yourself lollipop they sound appalling and quite frankly not very pleasent. You are doing the right thing in teaching them manners and respect, however as has already been mentioned they need to learn it at home as well.

I had a couple of children, similar ages, visit to have a look around in December, the older child saw one of the childrens beautifully wrapped x'mas gifts on the table and immediately started ripping it open, mum just laughed. I didn't. They then proceeded to try and climb over the safety gate at the bottom of the stairs, when I had already said they couldn't go up. I promptly thanked mum for coming and ushered them out of the house. When mum called later to arrange start dates I suddenly remembered I was full.

There is no way I would care for children who are so disrespectfull, in the few mins they were here they had reduced one of my mindees to tears, torn a gift and run riot. I am very strict, all mindees know the rules, they show respect for each other, peoples possessions and me and my family, they are very polite to callers and the other mindees parents.

If a potential mindee doesn't fit in with my current mindees or their behaviour would have an adverse affect on the children I care for then I don't take them.

I do however feel very sorry for your situation, I would suggest that you sit down with the parents explain very clearly how you expect them to behave and make it clear that you will give notice if they don't improve. I have a behaviour guide if you want it, I give one to parents and read it with all mindees.

sorry lollipop my email is [email protected] if you want the behaviour guide.

You are being far too uptight about how 5 and 7 year old boys actually behave. Sure, insist on manners, but you cannot expect them to just know that fighting with one's brother in front of 'guests' is a faux pas. They are little boys, not 34 year old party organisers.

your job (and that of their parents) is to gradually instil appropriate behavior into them, not be 'livid' with them for being little boys. They are 5 and 7, and they don't see thew difference between fighting in their own living room and fighting in someone else's living room, and you are being unreasonable to expect them to have this level of adult etiquette.

It sounds like they have responded well to the rules you have put in place though, so it's not that they're "bad" children, just that no one has expected manners or respectful behaviour from them before?

It sounds to me like you're doing a good job with them.

Atwork I am just emailing you now - thank you!

Everyone else - I am shamelessly lurking but I am here and I am very grateful for your replies, I am just dishing up tea now but will be back with some answers for you all, thank you!!

Erm hang on a minuite, why is it uptight not to want children to fight.

Surely parents teach their children to love, care and respect one another from birth, yes toddlers often have little squabbles but by the age of 5 I would certainly expect a child to realise that fighting is not ok.

And it's interesting to see how the people agreeing with you are starting their posts with "I'm not a mother of small boys but..."

You have not KNOWN embarrassment until you have tried doing anything with small boys in tow.

my standards are GODDAMN high. My children still fight and display appalling manners. It's because they are 7 and 4 year old boys, and eventually, my consistancy in picking them up on it will take it's toll and they will behave nicely, but my GOD I have had to lower my expectations.

Here's an idea .... why don't you do a poll on some primary school teachers to ask if this behavior is actually beyond the pale for small boys, or just 'unacceptable-but-normal'? Primary school teachers see the lot.

I agree with colditz about the fighting - siblings do fight. Do they know they aren't allowed to fight at your house? Is it a clear house rule they're breaking or do you just feel they should know better?

It's not uptight to not want children to fight. It's uptight to be 'livid' because small boys fought in front of 'guests'.

Small boys don't give a crap about embarrassment in front of guests and all the manners in the world doesn't change that

The physical fighting wasn't just in front of the guests though. It's been going on since the first week

After 11 weeks I would have expected them to respect the rules they know, stop testing a new carer and pick up some behavioural cues. It would also be telling if they responded to sanctions or not.

Most children should have the manners to say 'please' and 'thank you' even from the first they're at someone's house and greet people properly. I know people have different behavioural standards but some things should be a given, surely? I wonder how much time they spend with you?

From the OP and my experience I would say unnaceptable and not normal IF they're not adapting to the rules from FT care. Normal if they're adapting, if they're not there FT or if parents have markedly different standards.

Email sent

ahh loads of replies now

Ok

house rules and behaviour policy, you might need to remind parents of them

My house rules say

''WE DO

? Keep the air free from smoke
? Take care of the toys, furniture and other equipment
? Eat and drink at the table or in the high chair or booster seat to help keep the house clean and to avoid accidents
? Take off our outside shoes when we go in the house, to keep the house clean

WE DO NOT

? We do not run indoors, or throw indoors.

? We do not climb on furniture

? We do not play on the stairs or in the bathroom

? We do not go outside the front door alone

? We do not go in the front garden alone

? We do not swear, call each other names, fight or deliberately hurt anyone else

WE ARE

Kind and respectful to each other''

YANBU to expect 5 and y year olds to conform to your rules - the toddlers in my care have some sense of This is how we do it at BALDy's house, and 11 weeks is plenty of time for the children to take your stritures onboard

My honest opinion? I would give notice

im a cm and have 4 kids 3 off them boys 9,7,6,and yes the misbehave but they use there manners they hit out when they get cross with each other odd kick but not full blown brawl and i think u r doing the right thing and a good job like others said boundries there is a time and place my lads have restling sessions with there dad maybe this is why they dont physicaly fight they know i dont like it i was bullied and beaten at school

This will be another long post!

The boys live with their mum who works like a slave for the NHS, she does shifts so sometimes they come to me before school (hence the taxi as I don't do school drop-offs) and sometimes they come after school and stay for tea then I put them to bed and she picks them up when she's finished work, or I have them all day if it's a weekend shift.

Re fighting - I quite understand that boys (and even girls somtimes) fight and tbh I am not shocked that they fight at all, but what I think is unacceptable is that they do it infront of me or people that they don't know, I feel this is disrespectful - I would've thought it was common for fighting to occur infront of people they were comfortable with (family etc) but that they would naturally be more weary of doing it infront of people they don't, I hadn't realised that this was something that they needed to be taught but as Colditz has pointed out, maybe I should tell them specifically not to fight infront of anyone. Certainly when I was young I would be really coy/shy infront of new people and would be quiet as a mouse with lots of pleases and thank yous, I wouldn't be beating someone up in their front room nor would I have had to have been told not to, but maybe I shall now give them 'the talk'!

FWIW though, they do know not to fight as I've told them every time they have been fighting! The rest of the manners I've told them about and they're slowly picking up, and actually I would say that I'm proud of them because they are just so so much better than they were. They must know about the notion of respect and manners (and how not to fight infront of adults etc) because they are both in full time schools (faith schools) and go to church every Sunday so I think that between going to school and going to church they must have been taught about respecting people at some point, I just don't believe that they would have to have it pointed out to them at this stage that it is not acceptable to fight infront of people.

I think Colditz has brought up a good point though, I shouldn't expect them to know anything without me already telling them, so this weekend we are going to write a 'house rules' poster together.

For 'sanctions' I first give them a warning saying 'this is your warning, please do not do ..... or you will lose tv/toys/games/going outside, whichever I feel is appropriate. I then 100% stick to what I have said as I know that I have to follow up on 'threats'. It works with them, they have learned their lesson in respect of tidying up (I put every single toy,game etc in the shed so all they could do was read books with me, which was a great morning in the end btw, they really enjoyed acting out the books we read with puppets!), moaning over the tv remote (lost tv), not getting into bed (lost all sorts!).

I know that their mum does stickers and I would much much prefer to reward good behaviour than take things away for bad, but it's hard because whilst they can be here for quite a while on some days, they are not here for long on others. I have found them to be lovely boys when they are not kicking the crap out of eachother , especially when I can spend specific 1-to-1 time with them (ie no other mindees/my daughter not being a pain in the arse!) and I have some absolutely excellent 'memories' from doing story sacks with them, really warms my insides thinking about it. So basically, I don't dislike them, I just dislike their behaviour, but by-golly do I dislike it!!

Finally (I promise!) - Mum does know about their behaviour but I'm not sure that she's 'embarrassed', I would say she has just got used to it (as Colditz says you have to) and it doesn't phase her anymore, certainly she didn't try to suggest they shouldn't knock me down and trample me to get into my house etc and she says that due to family circumstances she has been lenient with them and is now paying the price (her words exactly). Saying that, she is a lovely woman doing a very demanding and tiring job as well as looking after two boisterous kids on her own, I don't knock her nor do I blame her for their behaviour, it is what it is and she is trying her hardest to keep everything together. I tell her each of my rules as we go along and what I have done about any bad behaviour, she says she absolutely loves that I am strict with them and that she is trying to follow my lead. I told her I was worried that they didn't like coming to me but she says that isn't true at all and that they enjoy coming and ask when they're next coming etc.

sorry but lol colditz - you make a good point. I do have a young boy, but he's only 19 months, so no, I don't have any idea how young sibiling boys are together, being one of 2 girls, myself! So my was probably a bit OTT in reality.

I still do think the mother would be embarrassed to know that they are not following your rules, though (most likely) and as she's working long hours, is probably doing the best she can... just an assumption, but I wouldn't want to assume the other way iyswim.

I think it sounds like you are doing a fabulous job - just what the boys need some stability and love.

Well they were here tonight and on the whole were really lovely (just one incident when I specifically told younger one to be careful throwing the Nerf ball and BAM first throw he smacked my 20m/o DD with it - perfect!)

I feel guilty having read so many posts about how I'm doing a good job so I'll confess, they've been on their best behaviour since Tues last week when (and I'm not proud of this at all ) one started kicking the shit out of the other right infront of me and I completely lost my rag. I am only human and I won't pretend that I'm perfect, I spent a good couple of minutes shouting in a very loud voice telling them exactly what I don't like about their behaviour and how it's going to change from right now! Anyway, I haven't heard a peep out of them for over a week now so whilst I'm not proud of not keeping my cool at least something good might have come out of it. I lasted 10 weeks until I raised my voice, it isn't ideal but I'm a CM not a saint ......

I am a mom to 3 very very lively boys ages 12, 9 and 5. They do have their moments - they fight and squabble but by goodness they know about it if they are crossing the line. I would be horrified and so disappointed in my boys if they went to someone elses house - childminder or not and done what you are describing. They would be read the riot act by me and dad.

Yes you teach your children good manners and you put up with a certain amount because they are siblings but you do as a parent have the good grace (or should have) to know when your children are out of order in public/outside the home.

As a childminder (who only ever seems to get boys to mind - rarely girls), I would be sitting the parent down and telling her that this behaviour needs to be tackled by both you and her - otherwise to be blunt I would consider terminating the contract.
You and mum need to be singing from the same hymn sheet and that is what will get these boys in line. (My own lads can sense a division between me and dad and will exploit it to the fullest - they go for the kill).

As a childminder I expect a certain amount of wear and tear and high spirits but I do not want my home trashed, my kids don't want their toys broken, lost etc, i don't want to keep having to replace resources out of my hard earned money and I do expect a bit of courtesy and respect.

As to you shouting lollipop - we have all been there and done that so don't beat yourself up. There is only so much you can take - much to my self-disappointment I shouted at my 7yr old mindee because he kept deliberately and purposefully disobeying me walking home from school and he was putting himself and others at risk.

Please talk to the parent and try to get them on board. sit these children down and explain that their behaviours are becoming unacceptable and together you are going to draw up a house rules and consequences chart. Removal of privilages, thinking time etc. By getting them involved they know what is expected of them, they take responsibility etc.

I would be seriously considering terminating the contract though if mum is not supportive and behaviour does not improve within a certain time period.