legally hiring a bulgarian nanny?

[3lattes4breakfast]

Considering hiring a nanny who is bulgarian. She has a yellow card meaning she is self employed. She has worked as a nanny before but I want to make sure that she is a legit employee. I think the yellow card is not sufficient.
Do I have to register as an employer + pay taxes as an employer? Does she need additionnal paper from Home Office? [confised]

assume if you are hiring someone and pay them more than the tax limit £ 6475 a year so £124 a week then need to pay tax?

I am not sure what a yellow card is but my understanding is that if you employ someone as a nanny who comes and works fixed days and hours in your home, then she has to be your employee. The only way she could be self-employed is if she works random days for you, also works for lots of other people and can decide whether or not she is available to come and nanny for you. The issue of nannies being self-employed is a perennial topic on MN and the consensus (and IR advice) is that it is not possible.

Just because she may have worked as a "self-employed" nanny before does not mean it was legal. She may have declared to another family that she was self employed and they didn't care too much to investigate or they may have been aware that they should have employed her but didn't want to. The onus is on you as the employer to check her status and it is you who will be fined if you are caught employing her illegally.

If I were you I would give the border control folks a call and find out what work a Bulgarian national can do in the UK. If you look on their website there may be a number you can call to talk about "A2 nationals". I think Bulgarians fall within this category.

Whether a nanny is self-employed or not is a matter of fact, not of whatever is in the contract or whether PAYE is applied. As Annh says, it comes down to who controls working hours, holidays etc. I cannot see how a nanny can be self-employed unless they are working on a temp basis for a short period.

She will need to be your employee. Suggest checking with an employment professional on what Bulgarians require in order to be employed in the UK. The job description of nanny isn't really relevant. She needs whatever any other Bulgarian employee needs.

Employing a Bulgarian or Romanian National
You need to read this document. It explains about the different types of card, plus about work permits.

Having looked at it, my thoughts are:

A card/certificate is issued for a specific employment. Therefore a new card would be needed.

Nanny I feel should fit the category of "Domestic workers in a private household" thus you as the employer won't need to apply for a work permit.

The Yellow Certificate is issued to: "the self employed, self sufficient persons and students. The certificate will indicate in which way the holder is exercising their treaty right"

"Purple Work Cards (aka Accession worker cards.) These are issued to those Romanian and Bulgarian nationals seeking employment in one of the categories listed in section 1." - given that "Domestic workers in a private household" is listed in section 1, how come this person does not have a Purple card? Why do they have a Yellow card?

I think the yellow card is not sufficient.
I would agree, though feel you do need to check this out with UKBA (0114 207 4074). Given that the person would be changing job, maybe UKBA will issue a Purple card for this new job.

The Yellow certificate may mean that they applied to come to the UK as a self-employed person, or as a student, or self-sufficient. So it will depend on what specifically is written on the certificate. Have you seen the certificate? Did it say that it was issued due to the person being self-employed?
According to BR1 the certificate DOES NOT confirm employment status. Therefore even though it may have been issued for someone who is self-employed, given that they are now applying for a nanny job, the card DOES NOT in my view indicate that the nanny job can be done as self employed.

If you employ the person and they are later found to be holding the wrong type of certificate, then you could face a fine of £5000.
"An employer who employs Romanians or Bulgarians working illegally will be liable to prosecution in a Magistrates court under the Accession (Immigration and Worker Authorisation) Regulations 2006. On conviction, the employer will be liable for a fine of up to £5,000. If the fine is not paid, the court can use bailiffs to seize goods and sell them. Alternatively, they can order the employer to be sent to prison."

Thus you do need to check this all out with UKBA and confirm that this person will be getting a new card (given that they are changing job) and that the card being issued is of the right type to enable them to do the job.

Do I have to register as an employer + pay taxes as an employer?

Yes, you are advised to operate PAYE. You will need to register as an employer and pay employers NI. You will also need to deduct employee NI and Employee income tax from your employees gross salary.

While the person may have been self-employed for other work, it does not mean they will be for the job you are offering. Is this a full-time nanny position... or are you just wanting a nanny on various different occasions?

Does she need additionnal paper from Home Office?

Yes, from how I read the employer guidance, she needs to tell UKBA that she is going to change jobs and needs a new card issued.
I feel she needs to tell UKBA that she will be a worker, not self-employed. Then with luck UKBA will issue a Purple Card.

Ah... there's a problem though. BR3 says the following for a "Domestic Worker in a Private Household":
"You must enclose with this application a letter from your employer setting out the details of your employment and confirming that you have been employed by your employer overseas (unless you are being employed in a diplomatic household) for at least one year as a domestic worker under the same roof as your employer, or in a household that your employer uses on a regular basis. If you will be employed as a private servant of a member of staff of a diplomatic or consular mission, your employer?s letter should confirm that he or she enjoys privileges and immunity within the meaning of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic and Consular Relations."

So that is probably why she hasn't entered the UK under the "Domestic Worker in a Private Household" category.

She could apply under the Au Pair category if she meets the conditions... max working time is 5 hours per day.

So assuming the job you are offering is for more than 5 hours per day, then she has to use the self-employed card. Problem is, nannies would not usually be self-employed given employee/employer relationship that is typical in a nanny job.

All very messy... could you not just hire someone else?

have a look here www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/eea/bulgariaromania/

sounds a nightmare from reading nicks reply

3lattes will she have sole charge? what age are your children?

might be easier to find someone else, esp if a yellow card isnt enough

I'm only hiring someone 3 afternoons a week so I can spend 1 on 1 time with my oldest when he is not at nursery. It's 12 hours and less than 124£/week.

If they are the same afternoons each week, then they may still be considered an employee.
However no one on here will really be able to say for sure.
Could the nanny contact HMRC and speak with a status officer to see if they can get clairification that the service they plan to provide you can be done as self employed.

THANK YOU so much for all the info.
After talking to the tax and revenu people it seems I would need to register as an employer and pay tax. This is fine with me however if I do that she would no longer be self employed.

The UK Border person I spoke was somewhat vague and non commital in the language he used. But from what I understand a nanny job is not covered under a yellow card. I would need to write them as an employer and apply for a purple card for her...this type of card is more for an aupair/live-in type of situation. Which is not what I want.

Maybe finding someone else would be simpler. But surprinsinly a lot of people who answered my add (and seemed qualified) were Bulgarian/Romanian. I don't think it's a salary thing because I did not specify salary and asked them to let me know their pay requirement when applying. Maybe I should just go through an agency to find someone?

One problem is that 3 afternoons a week probably does not appeal to that many people, thus your low response to an advert.

Looks to me that you want to get her a Purple card starting with the letter G.

Employing Bulgarian Romanian
"If the employment does not fall into one of the categories listed in section 1, an accession worker card will only be issued if the employer has obtained approval through the existing work permit arrangements. This means that the employer will first need to obtain a letter of approval of the employment from Work Permits (UK). Accession worker cards issued through the work permit arrangements do allow the holder to undertake supplementary employment. A purple work card with a serial number starting with the letter G is issued for these cases."

The Purple Card starting with letter G seems to me to be different to the card they issue to Au Pairs.

Don't know what the solution is. Did any of the other applicants have a Purple Card?

If I were to employ a Romanian or Bulgarian I would try to get someone with a Blue card as they are allowed to work without restriction. Did any of the applicants have that?

There's also the 12 month rule to consider - where A2 nationals have been employed for 12 months continuosly they no longer need a card. I think au pair placements count for this (but do check) and most A2 nationals are fairly clued up about their worker status, if not their employment status. Time spent self-employed doesn't count towards the 12 months.

Hi can you give me the bulgarian's nanny email i am a Bulgarian myself and looking for a nanny in SW London.
For everybody's info if the Bulgarian is self employed the pay their own taxes

but surely if the bulgarian is being employed as a nanny then they wouldnt be self employed?

Svetleto, the issue is not that whether someone who is self-employed pays their own taxes. Everyone is aware that the answer to that is yes, the issue here is that a nanny who is employed by one family on fixed days and hours cannot (under tax laws in this country) be self-employed but must be an employee.