Dodgy nanny employment practices

[butadream]

We've just advertised for a nanny and TBH [naive emoticon] I'm shocked at how many seem to be exploited at the moment.

We've seen quite a few CVs from Romanians, Bulgarians and Turkish people who are "self-employed" nannies - but a nanny is always an employee under UK law so if they are "self-employed" then the family employing them at the moment is carrying out tax avoidance. I'm also pretty sure it's against immigration rules (well, it is for Romania and Bulgaria as I know they are "A2" European countries, I don't know quite what the position is for Turkey) unless they have a visa that doesn't just relate to their nationality.

We've also seen quite a few Phillippine applicants with and without British passports who are working as "nanny housekeepers" with apparently huge workloads and I'll bet not much pay.

From the applicants we've seen it seems quite common practice to be a dodgy employer even though you'd imagine most nanny employers have responsible jobs.

Must be tough for real nannies to find a decent employer if the black market in childcare is so huge.

If I were HMRC I think I'd do an advertising sting with the police (if that's legal) and fine all these "employers" to the hilt.

I would employ a nanny who has done a course and First Aid and either registered with Ofsted or can registered with Ofsted. It shows that they are considering nannying as a career and serious about it. Unlike some people who are just working for the sake of their visa status.

I think on their passport they get "residents permit visa" with an expiry date. And with a clause that they cant claim benefit or something like that. As I said, they have to pay their tax. for them to be able to extent their visa. As I said before they have different aggrement with Europe.

I thought Bulgarians are in EU why would they need a visa?

Romania and Bulgaria are both in the EU but different rules apply, they are called "A2 countries", they don't have the same status as France, Germany etc.

I can see what you're saying about the nanny having to pay tax to retain their visa but:

• I don't think that UKBA and HMRC actually talk to each other v much or we'd see more challenges, maybe nannies are small fry for the authorities and they have bigger catches to go for;
• it doesn't matter really what the nanny does, the responsibility and potential fines are with the employer anyway both for tax and immigration purposes.

butadream I am a Romanian nanny and I am employee.Romanians and Bulgarians dont need a Visa to enter Uk since January 2007.
To be a legal worker in Uk they need to apply for a work permit(I know UKBA says that the employer should apply but in most cases is the employee who aplies for it).
There are two types of work permits:
1.Purple card- work permit that only Au pairs get
2.Yellow card- work permit that Students,Nurses,Domestic Staff(Cleaners),Builders,Doctors,Teachers get
This types off work permits only allow you to work in the same field you have registered to work and only for one employee.
Afer 1 year of emplyment in the Uk we can apply for Blue Card(Registration certificate) wich can give you the right to work with no restriction or can give the right to work just in one field(ex:construction) but for as many employers as you like.
There is another way to obtain the Blue card and that is applying as a dependant if you have husband or family who are student or self-employed and you will be registered as self-employed automaticlly thats why I said in my previous thread that they are "forced by circumstances".
I advice any off you that you ask them how they came in Uk, what they did before chosing to be a nanny.Some off them are qualified teachers and probably came and registered after their husband or they came to study and have been required by Uk law to register as self-employed.
And some off them have just been exploited by previous employers but is not just their fault.Life is taugh for us, the foreigns and we are the ones that have to sacrifice most off the time to get and keep a job!
A few months ago when I was searching for a nanny position I was interviewed by rich families who can deffinetly afford to pay tax and NI.Also the "funny"thing is that one of them was a lawyer... but all off them wanted me to register as self-employed and "take care of my tax".

Butadream if you really like a CV and you interview the nanny over the phone and after that in person dont judge her just because she is self-employed.As far as I know they can change the status and become an employee so that shouldnt be a problem at all.

butadream you said..

• it doesn't matter really what the nanny does, the responsibility and potential fines are with the employer anyway both for tax and immigration purposes.

This is not true The nanny has also committed a criminal offence.
If a Romanian or Bulgarian was found to be working illegally because they did not have the right to work in the UK or if they are working in a different capacity to what they are allowed then they have to pay a fine of £1000. If they don't pay the fine and it goes to court they can then be fined up to £5000 and face 3 months in prison.

This is a very cynical thread. I know lots of nanny employers and nannies who are paid legally and treated well.

I also have run across lots of "nannies" who expect to make outrageous sums of money without any qualifications or experience in the field.

Also ask if they have a blue card,,if they dont have it they are trying to work ilegal, as you cannot work as a nanny without the blue card!
Most of the nannies have been in Uk for a while so they should have the Blue card...
Strix you are right, there is god and bad like everywhere..

How is it cynical Strix? I am saying I'm rather shocked and others are saying it's not very good, it would be cynical if everyone was saying "oh well, that's just what the world is like and we should go along with it"

NannyNorthLondon I appreciate what you are saying about how Romanians come to the UK, I am still not convinced a Blue Card can make a Romanian a legal employee. I am sure there have been cases where the Home Office have gone to building sites where A2 nationals have been claiming to be self-employed and found they were actually employees and removed their visas.

Here is an article about Romanian builders on the Olympic site, for example.

Thanks for clarification too Treesa

In the article you posted about the Olmpic site though it doesn't say that the Romanian workers were blue card holders, but were registered as self employed. A self-employed person from Romania or Bulgaria holds a yellow card.

If they were blue card holders then as NannyNorthLondon says they can work as an employee without restriction. I assume that the immigration team who were investigating found out that the building contractors were providing employment for these people as if the were employees, but avoiding their responsibilities by takng them on as self-employed. Since they were working in a fashion that was just for the one contractor then they were working illegally.

Romanians dont need Visa anymore... Well I am legal employee and I know Romanians like any other nationals have the right to change from self-employed to employee.I registered as employee straight away and got my blue card after being au pair.
Once a nanny has a Blue card,National insurance number and can show you that her status is employee she is a legal employee, do not judge without having prove!

Here is an illegal workers cheklist

Can someone tell me what I should do? I pay an 'after school nanny' £90 a week to work a maximum of 10 hours a week (usually 8) to pick up my child from school 3 or sometimes 4 days a week and look after him for a couple of hours until I get home from work. I checked with a tax and payroll service before she started work with us, and they said that I do not meet the threshold for having to register as an employer and pay NI, tax. At the advice of the payroll service, I asked her to fill out a P46 giving her NIN and confirming that this was her only employment.

Since she started with us, she has also found another job, working in a cafe, which has fluctuating shifts. She has given her NIN to this employer also, so no-one is trying to pay cash under the table.

Does the fact that her earnings now are above the tax/NI level in most weeks affect our arrangement? Do I have to do anything with respect to the IR/HMRC? Or does her personal earnings allowance just continue to sit with her first employer - me - and the NI/tax issue just gets picked up by her second employer, the cafe?

Advice gratefully received! I don't want to do anything illegal or disadvantage our lovely childcarer in any way - but neither do I want to increase my costs if I don't have to do so.

this is the problem that anyone can decide they want to look after children and call theirselves a nanny yet be from another country/cant speak english/get exploited by familys

this is why i think all nannyies should be qualifed/be on a register but thats another thread

I just took a nanny on to do 6 hours a week for 6 months.

I don't know if this falls under the threshold or not. But when I asked if she wanted me to pay tax etc (which I was very prepared to do) - she said no - because apparently it would raise the costs to her 4 day a week nanny job and be too complicated.

NannyNorthLondon - I agree with you that a nanny with a blue card is entitled to work as an employee but a Romanian doesn't have the right to change from self-employed to employed.

blondes being from another country doesnt have to mean that you cant speak english and you have to be exploited by families...
You can be a good nanny even if you are foreign and be a bad nanny even if you are british!
I remembered now.. when I advertised on Gumtree I received a few replies saying things like "why dont you go back in your country" and "you foreings shouldnt be nannies" and that is hash, because if you want to be rasist ignorant then why take a job in wich your employer is not British?

Thanks for helpful info Treesa again.

NannyNorthLondon - did you really get those replies via Gumtree? Good grief

And on the gist of the thread - I was a bit surprised myself about the apparent ubiquity of cash in hand arrangements with nannies when I investigated hiring one a few months ago. I can see why people (employers) do it, particularly if they're in the 'can just about afford it' bracket rather than the 'rich' bracket. And I can see some nannies might like to have an element of cash in hand in their pay packet. But I agree with everyone who says this kind of thing downgrades the profession - makes it seem less bona fide.

That's the real reason I don't currently employ a nanny actually - because I would want to pay bona fide wages but could only afford under the table ones, IYSWIM!

Ha!

NannyNorthLondon I'm sorry this thread has focussed on Romanians somewhat, it was only my intention to use this as an example and not to be at all personal.

As an employer I am looking for an experienced nanny I can legally employ, of whatever nationality, and this thread has helped clarify this a lot for me (I didn't understand the difference between the yellow card and blue card, for example).

maraisfrance - I thought someone else may give some advice who is more aware of employment and tax issues. To my knowledge if you are employing someone even just for a small number of hours you still have the responsibility to ensure that all paperwork, working hours and so on are in order. If the person has more than one job then I think you may still be responsible to ensure everything is in order.

I say this because where I work, a few nurses were working very long hours and others were known to be working bank work for other agencies. A little contentiously a few years ago staff were told asked to sign a disclaimer saying they personally agreed to work more than 48 hours.. I think the hospital was not able to keep track each week of working hours from people's 2nd jobs (as they fluctuated) and decided to apply a broad brush to get everyone to opt out. Staff were told it is still the employers responsibility to make sure people aren't working more than 48 hours across two or more jobs. I know my example is about hours - but I would not be surprised to fins it applies also to tax/NI contributions due.

Maraisfrance - see here. Looks to me as though you should register and get a tax code for your nanny if her total weekly earnings exceed £110pw.

maraisfrance from a tax/NI point of view, you only need to be concerned with what you pay your staff, what they earn elsewhere does not affect you. Provided you have a signed P46 with one of the 'This is now my only job' boxes ticked, reflecting the fact that she only worked for you when she started, you need not operate PAYE (if you never pay her more than £95 in a week).

Her other employers should have P46s from her with the 'I have another job' box ticked and that means they have to operate PAYE and deduct tax from every £ they pay her even if she only earns £10 a week.

The only way a sole employer can be affected if an employee takes on another job is if the nanny requests and HMRC agree a tax code split and your contract with the nanny is for a net wage. That is why most payroll professionals advise that net pay agreements are always a bad idea, and tax code splits are only a good idea in special circumstances (when both employers pay less than the PAYE threshold).

Just to confirm, both of the previous posters are wrong. The information linked to applies when you are taking on an employee who already has another job.

I stand corrected. That does make more sense.