Aupair, - tax rules if has more than one job?

[willowlady]

The Romanain girl of 31 who wants to au pair for us has been in the country 3 years and is 31. Im not sure firstly how long she is allowed to stay, but she says she is as Romania in EU. I have checked websites but they arent easy to understand.
However, not only that, but she wants to do other jobs during day (I dont mind this as dont use her in day) like ironing, cleaning etc but would mean she earns at least #180-200 a week with all these jobs. Shouldn't she be paying some kind of tax earning this money per week, tax free? Anyone know the answer I would be so grateful to save this minefield on the internet!
Thanks
for reading this

She can stay indefinitely but will need to register first see here

At that level of pay she will need to pay tax and more to the point you will need to register as an employer and complete the appropriate records, although you may pay her less than the Earnings Threshhold (£95 per week) the need to register is based on her earnings, although if her au pairing is her primary employment all her tax allowance would be set against this meaning you would not deduct any tax and just fill in a lot of forms with zero on.

It is more complicated because the additional jobs will be self employed and so she should complete a tax return and make payments herself.

Have you looked at this web site and
this guidance which gives all the details as they apply specifically to Romanian nationals? The regulations are not easy to understand, but in simple and general terms, Romanians require a 'worker authorisation card' issued by the UK Border Agency to work in the UK as an au pair, and may require a work permit for other jobs.

Unless you can get her to sign something saying that she has not worked for anyone else since 6 April 2009 you will have to register with HMRC as an employer and deduct tax from the amounts you pay her.

This thread could not have been more timely for me - thank you. Interviewed a Romanian au pair this morning, due to start with me next week, in blissful ignorance of the fact that different rules apply to the recent accession states.... Have emailed to check she has the relevant accession card. Fingers crossed.

Then will need to cross the tax hurdle as she is definitely doing bits and pieces of other work in her spare time.

We asked about this because I considered an au pair who had asked specifically if we would mind if she had another job. We are paying udner the tax threshold but I wanted to know whether we'd be liable for tax the way we are with the nanny in our share if she got another job. The advice I was given was no - but I still can't really see how. Why would HMRC only care about her second job if the total earnings were over the tax threshold? So I will be interested how this plays out. Would she be living in with you? If so, in addition to the tax and pt about the circumstances under which she can work in the UK, don't forget to think about whether you really want soemone living in your home who is possibly spending MORE time working for other people. If that is the case. And never really free to pick up extra hours for you, the way a more traditional au pair would be.

Thanks for all your messages... it really is very confusing.... and I think I will have to ring immigration and the tax office. One site said that she could only work as an aupair aged under 27.....
Our last au pair was also Romanian but much younger at 19. She was brilliant and is greatly missed, very good worker and a lovely person. Will add any further developments here as I think some people might be interested, like me, to hear the outcome!!
Watch this space!!

the age restrictions only applied when they had to get an aupair visa before joining the eu.

Many of the au piar agency websites have out of date and incorrect information on them.

There is no such thing as an au pair visa any more, so any restrictions associated with that immigration status (hours worked, age etc) are irrelevant.

Also beware, experience has shown (and posted on here by money) that phoning either the immigration or the tax offices will not always get you the right answer, if you want proof of this phone them twice and see if you get the same answer.

Sorry to add to the confusion.

Here is what to do for tax. The procedure is explained in this HMRC booklet but I will summarise here:

If she gives you a P45 and you will not pay more than £95 in any week she works for you, you don't need to register as an employer.

If she doesn't give you a P45, download this form, a P46 and get them to fill it in and sign it before her first pay day.

There are three boxes on this form. If box A or box B is ticked and you will not pay more than £95 in any week she works for you, you don't need to register as an employer.

If box C is ticked, or you are ever likely to pay more than £95 in any week, you will need to register as an employer and operate PAYE.

Note that if you are not already registered as an employer you don't have to use the P46 form, but this is probably the simplest way to ensure that you know (and can prove) whether you need to register or not.

The significance of box C (which says 'I have another job') is that it means that you have to deduct tax at the basic rate on everything you pay her (unless or until you are notified of a different tax code for her by HMRC).

DadInsteadofMum - I think you are misinformed. My agency contacted me a couple of weeks ago because they had a fantastic candidate who is going to be 28 later this month. They were trying to find a placement for her before her birthday as otherwise she wouldn't be able to come under the au pair rules.

Treeesa - INF 16 no longer applies - it was part of the immigration rules but it was removed in November 2008.
Current Immigration Rules (Part 4) - at top of this document you will clearly see that "Au Pair" Placement and Working Holiday Maker (which was being used by some people to come to the UK to work) have been DELETED!

It was replaced by the Youth Mobility Scheme which only affects people from a handful of countries.

Treesa as I said many au pair agencies have out of date and incorrect information. I have never used an agency as I regard their fees don't justify what they do and they often give out legally incorrect information.

Treesa your agency is very wrong which would worry me as some countries under the au pair scheme are no longer covered: Turkey, Macedonia, Croatia and Bosnia. Are they still trying to place people from these countries?

And were you to employ somebody from one of these countries you would be personally liable to a fine of up to £5,000.

Don't rely on an agency for legal advice about au pairs or employment law - they almost universally don't have a clue.

one of london agencies i used even tried to persuade me that paying cash in hand is not illegal

It's not illegal Catepilarr, but tax avoidance is - you can be paid in cash as long as the relevant tax/ni is paid. (However I would guess that most people paying cash in hand are doing it to avoid a papertrail to avoid getting caught for tax avoidance).

well i ment cash in hand as cash in hand and no tax/ni.

Please don't all attack me at once!! I was only trying to be helpful..

DadInsteadofMum - I have checked everything that my agency sent me last time and I called them again today to make double sure.. We are about to find someone else for January and I want to make sure everything is still the same..

...So there is definitely an age limit for Romanians and they cannot come here through an au pair placement once they have reached 28 years old - or at least they have to be under 28 on the day they make their application with a valid offer from a family.

frakkinaroundthechristmas and HarrietThe Spy also - I think it's unfair to say that agencies don't have a clue or their wrong or give out incorrect information. The agency were great at explaining lots of little details and seem to know all the restrictions and so on inside out. Everything I was told by my agency seems correct so I don't know what information you have been given to say that Romanians don't have age restrictions.

nannynick - yes I know about the Youth Mobility scheme.. We considered an English speaking person but ruled it out just because of distances for flying home and what that would cost them (or us) as we usually try to buy a flight at Christmas as a pressie. With the Youth Mobility scheme the age restrictions are older for people from Australia, Canada, Japan & New Zealand but these countries have age limits too. The document you posted is the out of date visa guidelines but these are still the same for au pairs from Romania & Bulgaria.

Over the years I have had some great agencies and it isn't just the work they've put in to find these candidates for us, but also the time and trouble they take in supporting us when the au pair is here. For me I think it is money well spent as the reduction in time and hassle is massive. When I did it before I sometimes spent 5 or 6 weeks of every evening and day off sending emails, answering questions, calling people who didn't answer or if they did it was wrong numbers!! I'm not joking I must have spent nearly 100 hours trying to organise it all the last time we did it ourselves and then the girl let us down at the 11th hour.. Actually it was more than the 11th hour as she didn't turn up and she hadn't phoned to say she wasn't coming.. I descided then that my time was too precious and I'd spent too long agonising over it all.I work enough unsociable hours and miss my family so that 100 hours I could have spent with my kids instead. That alone justifies their fees for me but also I know they are doing it correctly asthey are more informed than me.

Regarding cash in hand - I think we have paid almost all of our au pairs cash in hand.. It is normal isn't it.. I don't try to avoid a papertrail - just its been hassle for us having to write letters to open bank accounts on behalf of au pairs etc.. One or two we've opened accounts after writing letters to ourwn banks to say they live at our address etc but they also seem to change their rules of what letters should say etc. By the time its been sorted most of our au pairs seems happy enough with cash anyway.!!

Treeesa, please can you link to the document where you are finding the age 28 age limit, as I can't find it. Where are you getting that info from... UKBA? Is it perhaps due to them being a student (there are different accession worker cards, a Yellow one I think is for students and limits them to working 20 hours a week).

According to UKBA looks to me as though someone from Romainia would only need an accession worker card, if they are taking up domestic employment in a private home. Can't find reference to them also needing to comply with the old INF16.

It is just the regular documents and advice for applying for the accession worker card.The application form is here and this is the guidance document for filling it in

The domestic employment in a private home I talked briefly about today with the agency but they said this is not possible unless I was like a diplomat ha ha and coming back to England after living overseas with this person.

I am talking to my agency in the morning as I need to make a decision on a couple of people and they are waiting for my response so I can ask them to clarify that again though.

Thank you for providing those links, it really does help to prove your point.

Section 5 of BR3 says:
~~ Begin Quote ~~
You must enclose with this application a letter from the family that you will stay with as an au
pair in the United Kingdom. This letter should confirm that:
? you will help in the home in which you are being placed for up to five hours a day;
? you will get at least two days off a week;
? you will get an allowance and your own room; and
? you are being placed with an English speaking family.
~~ End Quote ~~
So it seems to me to be mostly about limiting working hours, working days.

In Annex A of the Guidance Document, they have hidden put the following:
~~ begin quote ~~
Au pair placement
The applicant ?
(1) has and intends to take up an offer of an au pair placement; (2) is aged between 17 to 27 inclusive; (3) is unmarried and is not in a civil partnership; and (4) is without
dependants.
~~ end quote ~~

Alas I'm not sure how this will help you Willolady. As the person you are considering is already in this country, they are not coming to the UK. I think you are best calling the Employers Helpline on 0300 123 4699 and seeing if they can advise.

OP - if your Romanian has an accession worker card or registration certificate she can come and work for you. Romanians can enter the UK and work on self-employed basis without restriction so the odd jobs during the day would not necessarily affect you. She would have to fill in her own tax return though. They cannot start work without one of the coded worker permit cards but she should be able to either show you this or a registration certificate. If she has been here 3 years then she probably came in under the old rules and, providing she has been employed for more than 12 months, can work without any restrictions. Paying cash in hand is fine. Paying under the table to avoid tax/NI is not. As long as you're offering under £95 a week you're okay and you don't need to operate PAYE - just make it clear to her that you're her primary employer and are offering £95 GROSS so if you ever are in the position of having to sort out tax and NI you deduct it from her earnings from you.

Naughty of the UKBA to put that in about au pairs when they abolished them however that guidance document is 12/08 and I find it suprising (although not totally unbelievable) that they haven't issued an updated form. IME the now defunct FLR(O) and FLR(S) forms I used to process were reviewed quarterly.

Sorry didn't phrase it very clearly - if she took on cleaning jobs during the day she could legally do it on a self-employed basis and that wouldn't affect her employment status with you because you can be employed and self-employed at the same time but she would have to fill in a tax return.

I had a long conversation with my au pair agency today about this. I have to make a decision on a really superb candidate who is 28 next week. I have to make a decision very quickly otherwise this person is too old. When I talked about the possibility of it going over to her 28th birthday and just doing it as self-employed then they they advised me that this is not always as straight forward as it appears. There are various tests to determine if someone is really self-employed or not and coming as an au pair in your host family is not 100%

They offered me some really great advice about what to do if she does go over her birthday, but I'm now torn in knowing what to do. My current au pair is with us through until Christmas week, and the girl who is nearly 28 can't get here until after her birthday but we can still offer her the job before...! I've talked about this so much today!! it hurts..
She is a qualified teacher at kindergarten and primary school. Has experience working for two years in a kindergarten and did child psychology at university.. Too good to miss but she can't/won't fly this weekend and it looks like we are all going to miss the boat...