mindee has just told me something...

[holdingittogether]

Earlier this morning mindee 2.5yrs told me she had an "ouch" because "daddy smacked me". I am not a fan of smacking but what they do is none of my business. I had an inkling they smacked, even though mum says they don't, because she has on several occasions threatened to smack toys bottoms in her play.

Now i don't for one minute think there is any kind of abuse going on and it is none of my business if they choose to smack. But in the back of my mind I am thinking should I record that she has said this to me today? Just incase there are any future concerns? I am not talking about reporting it to anyone or anything just making a note of it just incase for the future. Would you note it down? Ignore it? Mention to mum?

I a wondering whether, legally as part of the 'safeguarding children' policies, you are obliged to record this somewhere. , formally. Not necessarily with SS, but on a form, or something. I think, it might be worth you calling SS, as a general enquiry and ask for some leaflets/training manuals/whatever around safeguarding children and when it is appropriate/necessary to disclose information. You can do it without disclosing or suggesting you need to disclose.

Write it. You don't have to show it to the parents (IIRC from my CP course you can keep CP notes confidential) but IF there's an ongoing problem, and I'm not by any measure saying that there is or will be but if there were, then that comment wouldn't count unless you noted it.

Sorry, should have added, that recording this kind of information, in a professional capacity is not about making any judgments on the parents, or assumptions or deciding whether smacking is a good, bad or otherwise thing to do. It is about responsibility in your capacity as minder to record things which might, or might not be required in the future as building a picture. Joined up working. If it is nothing, it won't ever become something. but if it is something (if) it means if other people notice something, it will be less likely missed.

Thank you everyone for your opinions. Child protection training can't possibly cover every senario and as someone else said smacking (as long as no mark is left) is totally legal.
I didn't mention it to mindee's mum in the end. It would have felt judgy and accusing. I have written down exactly what she said and the date on a piece of paper and filed it in the folder I keep confidential records. Now if god forbid 6 months time concerns are raised I have forfilled my obligations.
I really have no concerns about her welfare so I feel pretty comfortable to forget about it now I have written it down.

holdingittogether i think, given your understanding of the family, and no other concerns, that recording it and filing it is probably sufficient. If anything happens in the future, and you record that, or a pattern builds, you will have something to go back to that is real and concrete if you ever need to take any action (not for a moment suggesting that will happen)

Couple of points:

It takes a lot to get social services to investigate as they are very overstretched (I used to work in school welfare, they would only investigate the most serious referrals).

Rule one in child protection: at first disclosure just listen, don't question, don't investigate, don't doubt, and record. (This is in a child care situation which would be different from the home situations that some have described here).

What is the worst that can happen if you record it? The parents find out and you have to explain yourself, if you stick to the facts and nothing else, you can explain this.

What is the worst that can happen if you don't record? You haven taken a child disclosure that you have no record of and that you might (even though you think it is a remote possibility) need to repeat to social services at a later date.

Record.

I would write it down - it doesn't have to be in the official stuff.

When was she smacked for it still to hurt by the time she got to you?

*mistletoe - they went to the GP because their child told a lie???

Can I second those who mention children talking about things that didn't actually happen. I have never smacked my DD1 who is 22 months. However a few weeks ago I was supervising her dinner (she was in the highchair) and bf DD2 so well and truly stuck at the table. Our cat started clawing the sofa and the only way I could distract her was by shouting. So there I was yelling "Molly stop that!! Stop that AT ONCE! I will smack your bottom! Stop that!" and other fishwife style yelling. DD1 was fascinated - and since then she sits her toy monkies down on the steps every night while I bath DD2 and tells them "naughty monkey, smack you. Smack you. Smack you!". I just know she is going to repeat it at nursery and they are going to think we have spoken to her like that. And it really does worry me because we don't and won't smack our girls but I worry we will be "noted down", especially since as a carer I wouldn't find the story about the cat all that convincing if I challenged the parent.....

I suppose it's the whole situation that counts in these things. Since holdingittogether tells us that she has no other concerns, that's the important thing surely. I'm personally against smacking, but with smackins as with everything else it's the context that counts. So if on all other levels all else seems fine & there's no reason for concern, I wouldn't record it tbh (if recording it has any legal significance, I'm not sure what recording means in a CM context).

In a situation like what Blondes described I know I would feel my blood boil. Not sure how I would react. I've been in a similar situation at the tube, watching a woman smack quite hard her toddler who was being (mildly, really not too bad at all) disobedient. She was also yelling at him

Recording only has legal significance if it gets to the stage where one would need to report to social services. Otherwise it's a confidential piece of paper that only the CM sees and which gets destroyed after a certain period of time.

I would see it as holdingittogether currently has no other concerns. This could be the first sign of a problem, it's probably nothing but she doesn't know that and she has a responsibility to record. Someone else may have raised a concern with SS, the child's medical records may show more visits to A&E than the average, years down the line school may spot something worrying. None of these things are worrying in themselves and have perfectly rational explanations but every bit of evidence counts and IMO it's best to err on the side of caution. Recording something isn't going to hurt.

Fab - no they didnt go specifically for that. But the next time they were with their GP, they did discuss their concerns. About the fact that the child had outright lied about something so serious.

"outright lied"

But you see, I just don't think children under 5 or so are actually capable of 'lying' as we see it. Lying is about a deliberate desire to misinform or mislead. It it about knowing the truth but choosing to say something different. That's not what is going on in any of these cases. In small children their sense of what is real and what is not is not so fixed as an adult's - that is something they learn along with other social skills (because that's what lying, or not lying is all about - it's a social skill that allows society to function.) As an adult, we wouldn't make up a story about having 7 ponies because we can see the consequence of being found out - social embarrassment. Children don't yet have that sense of shame or anxiety (mostly) - it's learned. So I really don't think that you can say that a toddler is lying - more that they are trying out different versions of events on their carers and playmates.

That's what worries me so very much about the 'don't doubt' instruction in CP training (and yes, I have done it, and work in an education setting, so I am not talking from a position of ignorance here). To say that you mustn't ever doubt what a child says just flies in the face of all my experience (with my own and others) of what children under 6 are like. Yes, take care and record what you see and hear, but a healthy dose of scepticism is useful too, I feel.

The training doesn't say don't doubt - more that you shouldn't express any doubts to the child whilst listening to any disclosure.

I never heard 'don't doubt' in my CP training either. I got 'record in case it's significant and don't make any judgements either way' because if you form an opinion about it in the beginning then it may bias you when observing behaviour/hearing other things. IMO doubting/being sceptical is the start of forming an opinion and making a judgement.

pyjamalama I disagree - children under 5 are capable of lying to escape punshiment. I agree that they're not intentionally lying about the 7 ponies but I think it's wrong to say they're not capable of lying. Most are appalling liars but can you honestly tell me that you've never asked a child if they did something, knowing that they did, and they've said they didn't because they think you don't and can escape the punishment? Because I can't.

I don't think you can say a toddler is deliberately making up malicious stories though and what you saying about working out different versions of reality is totally true.

*don't know

frakkinaround - it's an interesting area, isn't it? My experience of the lying issue is that a small child will do something naughty in front of you, you say 'did you do that?', they may well say 'no'. I don't think that's lying to escape punishment, because that would require them to not lie if they know you had observed them, and they often don't. I think they know they did the 'wrong' thing, but want to see if you share the same feeling about it being wrong. That's how they learn what's desirable and undesirable. So I still wouldn't call it lying, although I agree that they are not telling the truth, understanding that they may be punished for their actions.

There is that great book 'The Scientist in the crib' and I think I may have read about the lying and truth issue in that.

Re the don't doubt thing - perhaps that is a bad way to express it, but certainly my CP training included the sense that all statements must accepted at equal and face value, and I personally don't see how that is always in the best interests of anyone involved.

Whats the difference between a smacked bottom and a smacked hand? Can't see why one would be worse than the other.

Now a smack on the face or head is a different matter because of the damage it can inflict. Dh and I witnessed a father smack his daughter very hard on the head the other day, it was awful. What should you do in those circumstances, dh shot the man a filthy look and made a comment about child abuse but how do you report a complete stranger?

Hmmm. I would still take issue with that - because I have always tried to ask children why they lied, because I feel it's important for children to understand the importance of telling the truth, particularly when they KNOW that what they just did is wrong (hitting a sibling springs to mind) and have heard the response that they didn't want to be told off or go to time out. Now that in my book is lying and they know what they're doing, they know it's wrong and they know they're not telling you the truth. But it sounds like an interesting book!

Gone completely off topic though, becuase the lie in this case would be bringing a non-shared reality into 'real life'.