Am about to change from live out nanny to au pair plus.... am I being a bit ambitious?

[orangina]

Hi there.....

Currently we have a live out nanny who works 4 full days a week (monday-thursday), who is leaving us at Christmas because she really needs work for 5 days a week. From January, dd (4.5) is going to reception (9-3:30) and ds (nearly 3) will be in nursery 2 mornings and 1 afternoon a week. It seems slightly mad to be spending all that money on a nanny who will have rather a lot of time with not much to do, and so dh and I have decided to probably move to a live-in au pair plus (up to 35 hours/week), on the basis of the au pair plus being able to do some additional holiday work (for extra pay of course).

Apart from the whole issue of having someone living in with us, does anyone think we would expect too much of an au pair plus (who will need to have been in this country for a few years, have decent english and 2 checkable references.....) to be in sole charge of either or both of them for 4 days a week? We live in London, have a pretty good community of nannies and au pairs around us, established playdates, etc, etc, so from that pov, it wouldn't always be "sole" charge....

It's just that once you start doing the sums, it makes so much sense...

All this childcare stuff is doing my head in. All happy positive stories of au pair pluses being marvellous gratefully received. Though of course if anyone thinks it's truly too much to ask/expect, I'd like to hear that too....

Thanks

That's still quite a lot of sole charge of the 3 year old. Au pairs who have been in the country some time with a lot of experience tend to call themselves nannies and expect a salary to match. Can you increase the nursery time? So it's more like pick ups for both? Will still be much cheaper than a full time live out nanny and I suspect will cause you fewer headaches in the long run. Probably wider pool of suitable candidates too.

Thanks for answering HarrietTheSpy (my favourite book as a child!).... unfortunately no, I can't increase nursery hours for various reasons I won't bore you about. I am working and studying part time, and thought that AP+ hours could be something like 2 half days on the days that ds is in nursery in morning, another half day after his nursery in the afternoon, and perhaps a full day (plus a bit of help in mornings and evenings to make up hours). So may be not too much sole charge.

Interviewed lovely live out nanny to do about 35 hours/week last night, but she will cost about 3 times as much, once tax and ni taken into account. Times are a bit credit crunchy just now.....

I agree with HarrietTheSpy that your expectations are a bit ambitious. I'm not sure that someone with the experience and skills you describe will be happy with an au pair "pocket money" type remuneration.

It's so difficult to work out! If you look at the young women (aged between 24-29 as far as I can tell) who are advertising themselves as au pair pluses, you would think it was all fine, they seemed to have everything that I was looking for.

Like here.

Sigh.

Sounds very odd to me. Why would someone as qualified as the young woman in the link not be commanding a proper nanny salary?

Well, from what I understand, live in nannies work 50+ hours a week. I don't really know of any part time live in nannies. And by the time you factor in the value of full board accommodation with telly, phone, broadband etc into a good London location, perhaps it is the equivalent of a decent part time live out nanny wage?

BTW, that woman on childcare.co.uk was not the only decent sounding one either. She wasn't a one off......

What exactly would her hours be?

In your area do you not have 'preschool' type places, such as you might find run by a church, which are not day care centres as such but do morning and afternoon sessions for three year olds? This is what I had in mind as opposed to a day care type nursery etc. The ones in our area are fab for the kids and also - brilliantly - run about £6-10 per session. A few more of these sorts of sessions, plus an au pair plus might work.

agree does seem a lot of hours/childcare for an ap - that is still 2 mornings and 3 afternoons you need childcare

could your nanny not find a 1 day job and stay?

seems very weird that the girl in link wants to work 35hrs a week for £100 but has teaching quals

think you may have to bite the bullet and carry on paying a nanny for another 2 years till youngest is at school

You also need to think about who will care for your children if they are ill and unable to go to school/pre-school. Also, what about school holidays?

I'm a nanny and only work part time (at the moment as I am studying part-time too) but MB will have to take time off work if the children cannot go to school and in the holidays, as I can only work 25 hours a week.

Before the children went to full time school we worked out that while in pre-school, they had about 14 weeks a year holiday (including inset/teacher training days and the school being shut for whatever reason!) and then with two children, had them home from school for roughly 6 weeks when they were ill, of course as children get older then tend to get less illnesses. That's 5 months of the year that she could be doing full-time sole-charge work!

Although if it is a 10 hour day and only 4 days a week and you pay overtime, it shouldn't be too much of a problem!

That said, I work 25 hours a week, live in, have use of a car, do nursery duties and earn nearly 4 times what the au pair you linked to, is asking!

Could you not get a part-time nanny? I have one for just two mornings a week and I always get applications from ones who are afterschool nannies (doing pick up). If you add the afterschool part to the job they do for me, it is exactly the hours you need isn't it? I get very good nannies applying when I post an ad on www.findababysitter.com I pay by the hour (£8 an hour) in central London. Does that fit in what with you want to pay?

Orangina - I have 2 DC and have had experiences of 5 AP +, personally unless you are really credit crunched OR you are a SAHM and can supervise don't do it. There is a reason AP+ is not paid as much as a nanny and let me assure you there is a tangible difference. That is not to say AP+ do not have their place, (I have one now), but my children are 7 and 3 and are in full time daycare. Our AP does what I call tops and tails (am and pm when I'm not around). I very strongly urge you to resist leaving your precious DC in an extended AP+ sole charge situation, nearly 3 is too young.

One of the main reasons AP+ charge so little is that their english is poor and their priority for being an AP is to learn English and that (if they are EU) their English is not good enough to be employed elsewhere. Looking after children, whilst learning English is a safe easy way for them to earn an income and achieve their aim. This focus is different from a nannys who career aim is to look after young children. That is not to say we have had AP's who haven't adored the children its just its not the same as a trained / career nanny who know how to do day plans, actitvity schedules etc.

Everyone, thank you for your input, especially Julesnobrain, you really articulated what I feared. You do (on the whole) get what you pay for. TBH, the nannies we have had in the past have all been great, but haven't been formally trained. The last 2 (we have had 3 in total...) moved up the childcare ladder from AP, to AP+ to sole charge nanny. They were relativewly young (23 when they started w us) but were v responsible, mature etc and I trusted them implicitly.

DS will be offered full time (state) nursery place in DD's school from September. Perhaps we stick w the nany until then and shift to AP+ after that.....

Any other experiences w AP+, good or bad, v gratefully received.....

Orangina, I think the woman in that add could very well market herself as a nanny. I think the thing holding her slary back is probably her English skills. It all depoends on whether or not you tolerate a bit of charades really.

Obviously the £100 or whatever it was a week "pocket money" is really low. But, she probably had to start womewhere to get a job who would be willing to help her learn English (the lanuage school is a clue).

She might be fab with children, just hasn't found a well paid job in this economy.

My last nanny but one came to us because a family in London had hired her as an au pair and then literally double her house so she was effectively a full time nanny but left her on the au pair wage. So, this stuff does happen.

AtheneNoctua, I know you have had lots of experience w nannies, have you had much w APs?

I definitely do not want just an AP (straight off the plane from wherever as an 18 year old wanting to be a member of the family). That wouldn't be suitable at all for us or our situation. But I was rather hoping we might have got to the AP+ stage of things.....

Hi, I think it is very reasonable what you want. Au pair plus works up to 35 hours and they generally expect to earn around £75 per week. If you go through an agency you can ensure that they have the experience you want and need (and have this checked) and also have the vetting done. Good luck.

We are not yet at the au pair stage. But, that doesn't stop me from having an opinion.

I think you are in that shade of grey between an au apair and an experience qualified nanny. You don't want an 18 year old who is looking for a sencond family. You want someone who can hit the ground running. Someone who will reliably show up at work in the morning without a hangover. Someone who is good with kids and likes them. Someone who is organised and proactive enough to say look out for your kids' best interest at the school gate (and not let them be bullied by the class thug). Someone who understands the employee/employer relationship and is committed to the terms of her contract (i.e. doesn't aim to regnegotiate it two weeks into the job when she finds out the au pair next door has some perk she doesn't).

Now, I truly believe that many of these things are simply down to personality and not formal training. Our current nanny doesn't have any formal nanny qualifications. But, she is probably the best well rounded nanny we have had. Some are good at part of the job, and not other parts. We have had two nannies who were really good with the kids but had no concept of tidying up. (as they get older I find the tidying/organising skills are more and more important)

So, someone who has worked as au pair (and therefore has live-in experience) and has two years of experience as a full time childcarer (nursery, childminding assistant, day camp, school teacher, etc.) is in my book a nanny. And my minimum age is about 21.

I dont think what you are looking for is a problem,i have had some wonderful aupairs with great english and lots of childcare experience.Why not look for an Australian mothers help/Aupair plus.I had a fab one for a year,dd3 was 4months old when she started so she would only have sole care if i had an apt i couldnt take baby to,but for 3yr old upwards i would have had no probs leaving her in charge,she was much better than me at all the getting on the floor to play and very organised to.

I value your opinion Athene, that's why I asked! We are definitely in a grey area, and a bit credit crunched with it, hence the leaning towards AP+.

We need someone experienced and reliable. Organisational skills are pretty important too (I am slightly challenged in that department....), and someone I can trust completely both to live with us and to have the children's best interests at heart. Perfect english is not as important at this stage. I don't need a career nanny, I would be just as happy with someone who (for instance) is still studying (in another field) and sees the AP+ role as a means to an end (as long as she possesses all those things I have mentioned before).

Am releived to read dikkertjedap that you think it is do-able. I was beginning to think I was mad to consider it.

Am still scratching my head over it though....

(sigh)

(and thanks totallyfloaty35 too, x posts.....)

Another thought is that you might find a local childminder who could lighten the load a bit more for the au pair by say dropping ds in on the mornings he doesn't go to nursery. And that would also free the ua pair / nanny up to do some of the chores you hate (laundry, run errands, etc.).

I am in a similar place as you. DS is in reception and goes full time in Jan. DD is 6 and already full time. But, I know have a job where I travel quite a bit so it's not uncommon for DH and I to both begone Tuesday - Thursday. So I don't think I can drop to au pair just yet... which is a huge disappointment because I have been counting the months until I could reduce the childcare bill for soooooooo long. But, it looks postponed now. sigh....

I don't travel for work, office is 5 minutes walk from home and so is DH's (though he does travel a bit). I am only working part time (was working 4 very full days, now down to between 1 and 3, with the rest of my time taken up w studying and 3 full time days a month at college...), so can be flexible if required (though couldn't deal with flakey or v sickly childcare). I do all doctors appts, school drop offs in the morning (or dh does any I can't, eg on college days) and am home by 6pm on my working days. Do also have local friends w childcare etc who could do occasional cover, plus my mother lives locally (though she still works and I try not to rely on her too heavily). So not without some ancillary support.

Childcare bill just crippling though. Can imagine you must be desperate to move to that next stage yourself.....

You are certainly a big step closer than I to being able to do this.

I think the fact that you and DH are both close by makes this doable IF you find someone who is really closer to nanny than au pair but would welcome a live-in not quite so full time position.

Incidentally, I think it is also much easier to recruit a live-in person becaue the market is so much bigger. When you are looking for a live-out you have to find someone who lives locally. But if you are willing to put up with a few communication / language / cultural struggles than Europe has a vast markey of young girls (and boys!) who may fit the bill.

It doesn't hurt to have a look and see if someone might suit the position. You are welcome to my "hideous" (as your sister calls it) questionnaire. It is a mile long. But there are just so many things I need to know about someone who is going to live in my house and look after my kids.

Good luck!

I would think you could find a young live-in nanny who wants to do 4 days a week - wages would be more like £200 a week though. I'm a part time live-in nanny in London, though I have a home to go to at weekends.

just a quick one to say that we have an AP+ who looks after my boys, age 4 1/2 and in yrR and a 3 yr old. The eldest goes to school from 0845 - 1515 and the 3 yr old goes to Pre School from 0900 - 1130 every morning and our lovely AP cares for them when I am at university (usually 0800-1600).

She is a native English speaker (Australian) who has a level 3 qualification in childcare and 2 yrs experience working in a nursary at home. She is only 20 though and her primary motives in doing this are to have a change of scenery and travel in Europe and get her foot in the door re nanny experience.

We recruited her through AP world via a list of about 20 questions, lots of email, chats on the phone and 2 refs from the nursary and a babysitting job she had which involved overnight care.