Nanny leaving end of March :( When would you start looking for childcare?

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

Unfortunately it's now confirmed that our much loved part-time nanny (has been with us for over a year) will leave end of March as she's leaving the country. She's been really great & it's made me appreciate the benefits of having childcare at home (our DS is now 15 months). I wanted to ask you wise MNetters when you would start looking for new childcare & how to organize the transition?

And what form of childcare would you choose (nanny / CM) taking into account that DS- who will then be 2- will go to nursery part time (3 mornings a week) from september 2010? We also are hoping for some continuity/flexibility in case we have a second child next year. So I suppose we're looking more or less for 3 days from end of March onwards, with a possibility for a bit more depending on circumstances. It all sounds a bit vague / complex atm- including that I don't know what hours I'll be working from February onwards- probably 3 days a week. So was hoping for advice / ideas about how soon to start looking, where to start looking, & actually if anyone is interested in that sort of position

CM might work too but I suspect it would be hard to find someone good on short notice...

£10gross an hour on 30hrs is £8.13 an hour

so for 10hrs day it is £80nett (roughly)

maybe offer a daily wage for 10hrs and if you get home 30mins early each day then a bonus

a cm would be cheaper, but if you do have another child next year then 2 children at a cm could be more expensive then a nanny

Sorry, I skimmed over the three day thing when i mentioned live-in. But, since this is a part time job it is absolutely essential that you talk in gross. And make sure nanny doesn't already have another job who thinks they get the tax allowance.

However, I noticed you said you are looking for a long term solution and don't want to change carers if you have another child. But, a fact of life is that nannies come and nannies go. You might hire one who decides she wants to move abroad or just decides she'd rather go into childminding or some completely unrelated career. You might find one who stays for years, but then you might find yourelf on the hunt again in 6 months. Don't go into this thinking you have sorted the care of your children for the next 5 years because it might not work out that way.

Athene yes of course you're right, and I appreciate what you're saying. However, we'll probably have better luck if we hire someone who is a 'professional' nanny i.e. who has chosen this as her career & is not just into nannying temporarily. That way we have a better chance of some continuity. I'm not talking of 5 years, I'm more talking about not having to look for childcare again in 6 months time. I just want to maximize my chances of someone who can stay longterm...

I'm not sure I would agree with that assessment Maria. As you have already concluded that £10/hour is your top affordable salary, you want someone who will be happy with that offering for say 3 years. So that probably means you need someone who will be happy with £9 gross now so that you can keep him/her happy for a few years with small raises at annual reviews. And some on here will point out that a small raise would be nice when number 2 comes along. There will be unexpected expenses along the way. And I would warn against backing yourself into a corner where you could be scraping the barrel to meet the nannies (increased) expectations.

If you offer your absolute maximum now, you will have no cushion to fall on.

Athene thanks, I see what you mean. The problem is that 9£ gross now is not easily found with an experienced nanny unless of course we do a nannyshare (which I'd be happy with). But I have no idea where to start looking for nannyshares! I'd be happy to pay a bit more than 10£ ph gross if/when we have a second child, I'm talking about what's affordable to us atm if you see what I mean. But maybe as you say it's safer to underestimate what we can afford rather than overestimate it ifswIm.

Am confused

am I being thick or is the whole gross / net thing a minefield?

All the nannies who have contacted me so far are talking in terms of net pay per week or per hour. Yet I have no ide. What that would mean for me, that is what I'd pay each week!! I was looking through NannyNick's calculations & I didn't understand them (as i said maybe I'm thick... Am certainly very bad at math).

So ok let's recapitulate: based on my calculations the maximum we can pay per week, all in all, is 270£. That's including everything. So how much is that net pay, per week, for the nanny?

£270 gross is £233 net - and would cost you £290. That's if it's the nanny's only job and a standard tax code.

My mistake - £223 net. Roughly £8.25 net an hour.

If you offer £8 net an hour, that's £260 gross a week. It would cost you £19 on top in employers NI so £279 a week.

To get it under £270 a week all in, you'd need to be offering about £250 gross a week, which is £7.78 net an hour.

I think your best option is definitely a nanny with child for that kind of pay - or maybe a young, newly qualified nanny.

If you want to know how much the nanny would get for it to cost you £270 per week (instead of £290), the answer is just under £211 per week. So if that is 30 hours, almost exactly £7 per hour.

Sorry, I see you are working on the basis of 24 hours per week (only 8 hours per day? Does that fit in with your working hours plus travelling time plus sensible hand-over time?

Anyway, here are the sums (I don't agree with argento's calculations):

Gross salary £252 per week, plus £18 employers NI gives total cost of £270 per week.

Tax of £25 and NI of £16 leaves the nanny with £211 per week.

But I am afraid there is a bombshell coming: if the nanny is looking to work full-time they are not going to look at it like that. As far as they are concerned, they want to be earning 5 days a week, not 3. And that means you can only factor in 3/5 of the personal allowance.

This means that there will be an extra £10 of tax to deduct.

So this will leave £201 net per week, which for 24 hours is £8.36 net per hour.

When you say £270 per week is your maximum do you mean the cost of paying the nanny, or do you mean everything that employing a nanny costs you because there's more.

transportation
food
increased heating bill
petty cash
activity fees
those really cute and really expensive shoes you just bought... and she lost one of them at the park.

Special requests for money like "DD really needs some more cultutal experiences so I though I'd take them for tapas or may to the beach in Brighton"

I'm kidding (sort of) but there are bits and bobs that add up along the way.

I think I would look for a nanny share or a nanny with own child (which is also a share) and look for someone who has similar views on activities, expenses, nutrition, routines, etc.

270 all in sounds rather low to me, even for 3 days. By all in, what do you mean... there are lots of other costs to factor in, travel and activities could cost quite a bit each day depending on what is on offer in you local area and age of children.

OK am now even more confused (but thanks for everything you're written). So I'll simplify things.

ATM we're paying 165.18£ per week net. That is for 20 hours. The gross pay per week (according to what NannyTax told me) is 172.

Ideally we'd like to go up to 27 hours per week (not 24).

I've calculated that from 172 that I'm currently (roughly) paying, we can go up 100£ per week or so (which is why I said 270£ per week. It's a rough estimation. Could be slightly more.

This money is just for the salary & my contributions (NI etc). I've been paying our current nanny 15£ per week as a 'kitty' which she uses to contribute towards travel, to go to playgroups & to go for lunch with DS. She doesn't do too much of all that, and has a Greater London bus pass anyway, so 15£ have proven more than enough.

So, again, when I say 270£ per week, I mean that's what I would like to pay, ideally, for 27 hours a week (over 3 days). I'm not including all the extra costs you've mentioned.

The bottom line is- what do I offer these nannies? (So that things are clear).

Here's some examples of the offers I'm getting:

1. A (seemingly) lovely nanny with lots of experience but with her own child (a 6 month old baby) has applied for the job. She said she's looking for 10£ net per hour (but said she can negotiate).

2. Another qualified CM / ex-nanny, who wants to go back to nannying, is looking for 250-300£ net per week. She also wants to be able to bring her 2 school age children along during school holidays.

3. Another qualified, experienced nanny (no children, sole charge) is looking at the least for 9£ net per hour. She thinks this is relatively low but would consider it in the right working conditions. She's a mum with 4 kids which is why she wants to go part time.

I'm more open to the possibility of a nannyshare & less so to the possibility of nanny with child (which I feel might get complicated). But for some reason most of the offers I'm getting so far are nanny with own child.

OK so one final question. If I end up paying 9£ per hour net (theoretically)- which from what it seems is a realistic amount in this area with experienced nannies. How much would that cost me (bottom line) per week? That is for 27 hours per week.

You might try nannyshare to find another family.

£243 net is approx £300 gross, which will cost you approx £325.

Not in a position to use the tax calculator, so I'll guess for now... Will do you figures later. I would expect it to be around 19k including employers NI, assuming that you are able to use the nannies personal tax allowance.

Do you understand that a persons tax code will affect what you pay as Gross salary, when they are wanting a specific net salary?

obv you are in london, but i dont think £8nett an hr is that bad for a younger/newly qualifed nanny

some nannies i know in kent earn this and have 15years exp

1 and 3 seem the best, ideally 3 as wants £9nett and no 1 wants £10 and to bring her own child

i would offer maybe no 1 £8 and see what she says as really she should earn less for being able to bring her own child to work with her

1- I would not take this further because her salary expectations are totally unrealistic for someone who wants to bring her baby with her. Even if she agrees to less, she is unlikely to be happy with it. And the child is very young, potentially landing her with 3 under threes which makes local travel a bit of an issue as soon as you have another baby. (especially if she does not come complete with a car)

2- This one would be my pick (althought the selection is not great). Her kids are old enough that they aren't going to be there very much. She has quite a lot of experience. But, I would be a bit weary of her kids after school requirements and make sure there is no conflict. And she could meet her net salary by getting another job one or two days a week. Or did she want that rate in 3 days?

3- Four kids is a lot. I would be concerned about how much time her own kids demand in terms of activities, homework, etc.

Also, for young children, I prefer a nanny on the younger side because I think they tend to be a bit more energetic. This is of gross a terrible stereotype and I'm sure there are exceptions.

Assuming you can use the nannies full single person tax allowance so no complicated tax code, then:

243 net per week (9 net per hour x 27 hours)
is 15525 gross per year, see ListenToTaxman.com
Employers NI is 1255.68
Giving you a total cost of 16780.68, or put another way £322.71 a week.

If their tax code for this employment is BR, then it would work out as follows:

17399 gross per year, see ListenToTaxman.com - I have done this such that the weekly net figure remains £243.
Employers NI is 1495.55
Giving you a total cost of 18894.55, or put another way £363.36 a week.

So if this employment is not their Primary Job and the full personal tax allowance is not assigned to this job... then it could cost you an extra £2113.87 if they were to be using BR tax code. If they have a different tax code (such as if they split tax allowance across jobs) then you may not lose out on so much. Problem is, you don't know a potential employees tax code... even if you did... it may change during the year.

That is why you don't deal in net salary figures if you can avoid it... by agreeing a gross salary, if the tax code changes, the net pay changes.

NannyNick, this is very helpful! So basically if I offer, say, 300 gross per week (plus the employer's NI on top of that of course) that would cover me in the scenario that the tax code changes...

Yes, if you offer £300 gross per week, then its almost 244 net per week (see here), if they are a single person with typical tax code. If they have BR code, then it's around £219 net (see here)

If you offer the salary as Gross, the persons tax code does not matter, as your cost is the Gross salary plus the Employers NI. You then deduct the nannies tax and NI on their behalf... resulting in their net, take home pay. The amount you deduct is determined by the tax code, which can change during a tax year. Employers NI also changes from time to time... think it goes up by 0.5% in 2011.

Something else agreeing a Gross salary covers you against is any Deductions from Earnings at Source, such as Student Loan repayment.