Nanny looking after own DS and charges in nanny's home?

[KnitterInTheNW]

I've been a nanny for over 15 years and now have my own DS. I have finally found a family who sound v keen on me being their nanny for 3 days a week and taking my DS with me. I'm going to see them on Monday, and am making a list of things we'll need to discuss if it all goes ahead.

One thing I can't find any info about, is if it would be illegal to have the children at my house occasionally (We'd be at their house most of the time but just wondering about times when DS wasn't well etc, and wondering if on occasion she'd be able to drop her children to me on her way to work).

I know a nanny looks after children in someone else's house, and a childminder looks after children in their own home, but wondering where we'd stand with it being a sort of nannyshare (sharing the childcare between hers and my families, sort of).

Does anyone know where I can find this sort of info out, please? Or would it just a be something me and the lady I'm going to see would decide between ourselves?

Thanks Mallarkie.

I agree with what you said. Except, there aren't that many nannies where we live, they're all closer to Manchester working for footballers! (That was my last job here... never again!)

I'm sure we'll be able to work something out that suits us all. I've always gone out of my way to not inconveience my employers, and don't intend to change that now.

Knitter - as this parent hasn't gone looking for a nanny, do make sure they understand the costs involved in employing a nanny. Sometimes parents don't realise initially that they will need to operate PAYE thus deduct tax and NI from your [the nannies] gross wage, plus pay Employers NI. Then there is the associated paperwork to go with that... payroll agencies will handle most of it, for a fee... plus there is providing you with food, work related travel expenses, activities kitty etc. Drawing up a contract can be fun as well - what holiday you should get, what happens about sick pay, maternity pay, what is considered to be your duties, what are grounds for immediate dismissal, and lots more.
With luck they will have looked into all this now that they have started talking with you about you becoming their nanny... but they may not have realised this yet, so go armed with info on all that as well. Useful websites include www.hmrc.gov.uk/PAYE www.acas.org.uk www.listentotaxman.com - this is handy to calculate salary including Employers NI.

Thanks nannynick, I already have all that printed out ready to give to them to look through. Tax shouldn't be too big a problem as I'll probably only be earning just over the threshold. I was initially looking at £120 net for 3 days, which is actually £122.73 a week total cost to the employer according to the charts. I told her during our initial chat that they'd have to become my employers, and she wasn't fazed by that at all. Just said, 'ok, you can talk us through that when you come to see us'. Of course I have no idea how to go about that so found a guide online about how to become a nanny employer. I also have a tax calculator chart thing that I printed off too. I've started to make a list of all the other things we need to consider and what needs to in a contract too.

Having been a nanny for a long long time, I know more or less how it all goes!

Actually while I have you here, holiday entitlement... it's 28 days for a 5 day working week isn't it, so 16.8 fir a 3 day working week. Does that include bank holidays, or is it on top of bank holidays, or does the employer decide?

It's 5.6 weeks regardless... so 5.6 x 3 = 16.8 days. May want to encourage them to round up to 17 days. Those days CAN include bank holidays when they fall on a day that is usually worked - so if you were not to work on a Monday then there are not that many bank holidays which can be included. The employer can decide if bank holidays are to be in the 16.8 days, or if they will give those as extras. See BusinessLink for more info.

Yes your figures look about right... ListenToTaxman would make it 121.45 a week including Employers NI, with me making lots of assumptions which are probably wrong... like you are on a standard tax code.
I'm surprised you can afford to live on £120 a week. That would only just cover my mortgage payment - and I have quite a small mortgage!

It's not much, but we live oop North where everything's cheaper (We just bought a 1910 3 bed semi for £115k), it's more than I'd earn if I were to take a different type of job and pay for childcare, and it's £120 a week more than I'm earning now! And I get to keep my scrummy little boy with me. I might try for a little bit more, as I'd assumed when I first worked it out that I'd end up with a family with 1 DC the same age as mine, and this family have 2 DC. (Their older one is 2 1/2, mine is 19 months and their little one is 5/6 months now.)

The tax chart I used was on nannypaye.com. No idea about the sort of tax code I'd be on!

Alas I have no idea either, particularly if you will still be able to claim some benefits, which I expect you may be able to do having a child of your own and working for that amount of pay. Perhaps have a chat with JobCentrePlus, see if they know.

£115k for a 3 bed semi... my studio flat is worth about that, it's not that much bigger than a shoebox! Well ok, it's a bit bigger than a shoebox... but probably not bigger than your front room + kitchen.

We don't get benefits now, apart from a few standard bits & bobs. DH's salary is too high. (We're not rich, we're in the group of people who earn too much to get any help but don't earn so much that they wouldn't be handy!)

I can imagine the size of your studio, I lived in one for 3 years in Kentish Town. £145 a week, at the same time my now DH's lodger paid I think about £120 a month for his room!

Now I'm afraid I am going to argue the point because regardless of whatever anyone believes the Children's Act is law and a criminal prosecution never looks good on a childcarers record. It says that that early years providers need to be registered, except for the exemptions mentioned above. And the only exemptions are care in the child's own home for 1 or 2 families, care for less than 2 hours and care for fewer than 14 days with the appropriate notice.

I totally sympathise with the OP - there are times when it would be waaaaaay more convenient for her to do the childcare at her home but, unfortunately, that's not legal and I don't think we should be 'sanctioning' it, which is what we'd do if we all came on here and say 'oh, yeah, it's fine, go ahead' and no-one pointed out what the Act actually says, something I am tediously familiar with (un)fortunately. FWIW I'm with athene on the regulation of nannies - we'll get to the stage where you can't have a child round to play without a risk assessment, child protection policy, CRB check, complaints procedure and a consent form - but much as we dislike it that's what the Children's Act actually says. Personally I would never offer to have a child I cared for in my own home whilst I was being paid - it's not worth the risk for me.

Relevant section from the Children's Act on registration if anyone's interested are found in chapter 2, section 33 and 34, and sections 52 and 53 deal with under 8s.

OP - good luck with your chat with your potential employer! Hopefully you're now armed with enough info and you can make a decision about what

I'm hearing you, Frakula! Thanks for all the info.

I wouldn't be planning to have her kids at mine 'because it's way more convient', and actually even if it were legal etc I'd rather never have to deal with a situation where I'd have to consider doing it.

Laws only work if they are:

1. Enforceable (how many people have actually been prosecuted since 1989? Think there was 1 in Scotland where for illegal childminding they got a fine, anyone know of any other cases?)
2. Majority of the public agree with the law - if everyone rebelled against something the legal system I feel would not be able to cope.
3. There is sufficient deterrent to make people think twice before breaking the law. A small fine isn't going to put someone off really is it? Doesn't look good on a childcare record though... but if CRB didn't exist, employers of that person wouldn't know ... would they?

Children's Act? Don't you mean The Childcare Act 2006 (the section numbers frakula quote's are right for that) as that has now virtually replaced the Children Act 1989 as amended by the Care Standards Act 2000.

Yes Nick the section references Frakula quotes are indeed from the Childcare Act 2006. Unfortunately this piece of legislation was very badly drafted - see for instance the problems over the lack of definition of 'reward' which resulted in the farce over the police constables' children.

But although the 2006 act modified a lot of what was in the Children Act 1989, many parts of the 1989 act were not repealed. In a way this is a good thing because of the poor drafting of the 2006 act. For instance the distinction between childminding being care outside the home of the child and nannying being in the child's home is in the 1989 act - the 2006 act defines childminding as '[childcare] provision on domestic premises for reward'. As drafted that means that nannies are childminders. Now this has not to my knowledge been tested in the courts, and after the police constables debacle I cannot imagine any authority ever trying to make a case with this.

So back to the 1989 act, which I assert (and it seems that Frakula agrees) properly defines childminding as care other than in the home of the child. Lets have a look at the words that enact that definition:

Children Act 1989 "71(5) Where a person is employed as a nanny for a child, she does not act as a child minder when looking after that child wholly or mainly in the home of the person so employing her."

So if you are employed as a nanny for a child (like the OP hopes to be) and care for that child mainly in the home of the employer, but occasionally care for that child in your own home, the 1989 Act which others on this thread claim to know so well says that you are not acting as a child minder.

As for the concept of getting a criminal record, note that it is not an offence under the Childcare Act 2006 to provide childminding without being registered. If a local authority believes that you are doing that, they must apply to the Chief Inspector for Schools in England, which essentially means Ofsted (similar provisions apply in Wales, Scotland is another matter), for him to issue an enforcement notice. If you ignore the enforcement notice, that is a criminal offence. Again after the police constables' debacle, there is no way that even the most ill-informed trumped-up autocrat in Ofsted is going to pursue anyone doing what the OP proposes. Even if they did and got an enforcement notice, you haven't committed any offence.

Any questions?

One point - the distinctions in the 1989 act are in the 2006 act as exemptions which pretty clearly out that you're a childminder UNLESS you're providing care in the child's home or the home of another child, which could override the wholly/mainly clause of the 1989 act. That bit is usually interpreted to mean that you're a nanny if you're occasionally removed from your normal place of work for a holiday/to visit grandparents, which is the view most insurers take of that as well.

But as we've said, the 'official' position would be no, it's not supposed to be done. So should anyone trace this IP address I've not encouraged anyone to break the law which given the occupation of the owner of this house/phone line would be rather embarassing!

But doesn't Part X of the Children Act 1989 cease to extend to England. Think that change occurred in 2002, may have been 2000.

Good point Nick. Where on Earth does that leave us, because that is where the distinction between childminding and nannying that I quoted that everyone understands comes from?

Off to check sources.

I think current def is in Care Standards Act 2000, if that part of it still remains in law.

Yes Nick, as usual you are absolutely right - the section of the 1989 Act I have been quoting was amended by the Care Standards Act 2000 which came into effect 2.7.2001 in England and 1.4.2002 in Wales.

What I should of course have been quoting was the exemptions used in subsequent acts which you helpfully pointed me towards and I ignored (sorry, I blame the drugs - long story).

So to paraphrase the provisions of current legislation:

Where a person looks after a child for the parents and the work consists of looking after the child wholly or mainly in the child's home the work is not to be treated as child minding.

So again, if you are a nanny that takes your charges home once in a while you are not childminding, you don't need to register as a child minder and you don't need child minder's insurance.

Cross-posted - thanks for the pointer, I was slowly working through the revised statutes online.

But you should still have nanny insurance, which doesn't usually cover you in your hown home. So if a charge has an accident there then you're not covered.

I don't understand why this legislation is so badly worded (or why half of it exists in the first place but that's another story).

Kitter - hope it is now all clear. Well clear as mud

If it was only in exceptional circumstances then you should be fine (though note that your nanny insurance may not cover you on those occasions).

Moved house today and came back to see what the conclusion is... My brain hurts from reading and trying to keep up with all that!

Very much appreciate it, all

but surely taking the children there once in a while and an accident ocurring is just the same as if you took the children to a friends or on an outing and an accident occurred surely you would still be covered or r you only covered if you are in the house when accident occurs. i am a childminder i am insured to my home address but am covered for anywhere i take the children. its me thats insured not my house.

Nanny insurance is also designed to cover the person not the home, but the definitions they use say 'in and from' the child's home and it would be quite hard to justify why you had the children at your own home whilst you were working. Not a route I would want to go down tbh. You're automatically covered for 'attendance at exhibitions, creches, meetings and outings run for and on behalf of nannies' but that doen't cover your own home.

Just thought I'd let you know I have the job!