CM Club: NCMA Contracts and statutory public holidays

[sofewbraincellsleft]

Does anyone else use the NCMA Contracts?

Have you noticed on the new ones section 16 where it states that you cannot charge fees for sph if the service is not available?

I am absolutely livid. Was doing a new contract for a parent and noticed this; I do not remember being informed of this change by NCMA, anyone else been informed or noticed this change in their NCMA handbook?

I am not sure if I can write in the 'additional notes section' that I do charge for sph even though the service is not available. As NCMA state the above in section 16, just not sure.

Any ideas how I can get around this apart from not using their contracts?

I got paid for bank holidays when I was a nanny and didn't work.

Same now as a childminder. Everyone I know childminder or not gets paid bank hols...

I know we're self-employed but it's just expected where I am.

Maybe it's different for different places?

Just like childminder fees, could be £35 per day or £55 per day depending on where in the UK you live

i am a childminder and get paid bank holidays when im off think its one of the only holidays that ur more likely to get paid for rather than just your annual leave which people can be funny about paying

Joanne only uses her childminder on Mondays. She pays £4 an hour for 9 hour days for each of her two children, so £72 a week. She can't afford to take her kids on holiday during the summer when her childminder takes her two weeks, so she had to pay a nursery to take her two kids when her childminder took her holiday even though Joanne had to pay the childminder for those days.

So far this year, Joanne has paid the childminder for 41 days of childcare. So the 35 days the childminder was available to look after her kids(*) have cost her £2,952 - this works out at £4.69 per hour.

Harriet uses the same childminder on Wednesday. She pays the same amount as Joanne for her two kids. Harriet can afford to go away during the school holidays when the childminder takes her two weeks so these are the only two weeks she has missed.

So of the 41 days Harriet has paid for, the childminder was available 39 of them. Harriet has only paid £4.21 per hour, more than 10% less than Joanne.

How is this fair?

• of the 41 Mondays so far this year, the childminder was unavailable on the Bank Holidays on April 13, May 4, May 25 and August 31 and on 27 July and 3 August when she was on holiday.

might not be very fair if your child is only a monday child but for children who are 5 days a week then its not much of a lose most parents are off the bank holidays (well of the children i watch) i dont take to many bank holidays and have only this year included xmas , boxing day, new years day and the 2nd as public holidays when normally they are annual leave. i now take easter monday, may day, september weekend (although just the monday as i dont wrk a friday) and xmas and new year as public/bank holidays. then again i try and take my holidays when the children are off school/nursery so that both me and my children are off at the sametime no point me being off whn children at school/nursery then them being off when im wrking and i think most parents try to take the same holidays as there children so they can spend time together.plus most of my parents no my holidays at the start of the year so can put there holidays in at the sametime or have plenty of time to arrage cover from gran or friend.

So a policy which works out OK in general and only discriminates against a minority of people is a good one then?

i would say that not all my parents pay the same as there circumstances are all different most of them get tax credits so pay very little out of there own money so they tend to no objecttions to paying for holidays. then i have 1 parent who pays it herself which is actually a monday after school only and she pays all year round but then doesnt pay in the summer she pays all the other holidays even though her child does not attend and some of them are my holidays not just the school but in the summer she doesnt pay anything this is what we agreed. every parents payment is suited to there needs and circumstances so could not have a rigid policy to cover all mine allows felxibilty

I don't charge bank hols if I don't work them, and wouldn't dream of it. No CM I know charges.

To answer the OP, do as Katy says - raise you fees by 10p an hour to cover it.

badgerhead; Thanks for info, really helpful to know

I was not impressed when I got my new NCMA contacts and read this. I have gone over to Micheal Morton now and use their contracts which are actually a lot more user friendly.

I charge 4 weeks full pay for my holidays as well as b/h as the current guidelines suggest CM should get paid holidays. All the local CM charge holiday where I live and to date I have not had to argue the point with any of my new or prospective parents.

wish I was Joannas childminder.. shes raking it in..

I dont charge for bank holidays and dont work them. No place offered, no fee.. thats how I work

all cms are different, its not about right or wrong, its up to the parent who agrees with the contract in the first place. Parents shouldnt sign if they dont like what the cm is offering.

Squibby2004, this is where I was rather confused as to why NCMA decided to change the B/H paragraph; you are right, the current guidelines suggest childminders charge for their holidays and it was this that just didn't make sense to me against the para they omitted.

Incidentally, I don't charge for my holidays at all nor would I think it fair to but everyone to their own. Most childminders local to me, charge 4 weeks hols, up to 5 days sick pay and b/h's . Well we are all different eh!

Apparently NCMA HAVE listened to us minders and the new contracts (available from November) do not have the BH clause in

www.childmindinghelp.co.uk

Mr. Anchovy, let's look at it the other way.

Joanne's childminder listens to Joanne's claim that she is being unfairly charged and decides thar she won't charge for bank holidays any more.
However, she still has her bills to pay, so she does what other self-employed professions do and raises her hourly fee to factor in the bank holidays.

Now Harriet is being charged unfairly. Although she never gets the bank holidays, she is paying towards Joanne's and her childminder's bank holidays and - get this - as an employed person, Joanne is being paid for them anyway!
And what about poor Laura? She sends her 2 kids on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, never gets those bank holidays off, yet pays 6 times as much towards Joanne's and her childminder's bank holidays. How fair is that?
Whether or not Joanne or Harriet go on holiday is their own affair and beside the point.

sofewbraincellsleft, my apologies for hijacking your thread.

Mr. Anchovy, let's look at it the other way.

OK, I'll try and follow your logic...

Joanne's childminder listens to Joanne's claim that she is being unfairly charged and decides thar she won't charge for bank holidays any more.
However, she still has her bills to pay, so she does what other self-employed professions do and raises her hourly fee to factor in the bank holidays.

Understood. There are 8 Bank Holidays in the UK, and 260 week days (365/7*5, normally rounded to 260). So all things being equal, a rise of 3.2% should cover Bank Holidays. If two weeks summer holiday is being charged for as well the rise is 7.4%, which seems a bit steep until you factor in the fact that you only pay that for 50 weeks out of 52, which brings the rise over a year back down to 3.3% over the course of a year.

Now Harriet is being charged unfairly.

No, she is being charged more per day, but she was being charged too little before (and Joanne was being charged for too many days). Now everyone is paying the same rate per day for the number of days the childminder is available to care for their child.

Although she never gets the bank holidays,

You mean she never gets her child cared for on a bank holiday? Well nor does Joanne.

she is paying towards Joanne's and her childminder's bank holidays

Not sure what you mean by paying towards Joanne's bank holiday. Yes you could say that she is paying towards her childminder's bank holidays now: before she wasn't, Joanne was paying for them all herself which is why it wasn't fair.

and - get this - as an employed person, Joanne is being paid for them anyway!

I am not sure that assumptions about Joanne's employment status are helpful - how about assuming that Joanne needs a childminder every Monday because she has to care for her disabled sister that day? Alternatively, assume Harriet is also employed and gets paid for bank holidays.

And what about poor Laura? She sends her 2 kids on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, never gets those bank holidays off, yet pays 6 times as much towards Joanne's and her childminder's bank holidays. How fair is that?

None of Joanne, Harriet and Laura get any care on Bank Holidays so they are all equal there. Under the new arrangements, nobody pays any money for the care that is not available either, so that is also fair. Everybody pays the same rate per day of care, which is 3.3% more than Harriet and Laura used to, which is also fair. Before, Joanne paid over 11% more than Harriet and Laura per day of care. Which was not fair.

Whether or not Joanne or Harriet go on holiday is their own affair and beside the point.

The issue of charging for the childminder's holiday is more subtle in its unfairness, but it is not beside the point. The point is that the childminder is unfairly charging everybody for something they can't have (childcare during the two weeks of the childminder's holiday). My example illustrates the unfairness of this because it has a greater effect on Joanne than it does on Harriet, but it is only an example. Perhaps you would prefer the example of Nina who leaves at the end of summer term and Penny who replaces her, starting at the beginning of the summer holiday. By the end of the holiday, Penny has paid for 6 weeks child care and only received 4!

Finally I should point out that nothing I have said implies that it is unfair to charge people more per hour in term time than the holidays, or reduce fees for siblings, or even charge more for Mondays because you want to put people off because you want an easy start to the week! Nor is it unfair to charge during parents' holidays, retainers to hold places open or any other charge for when the service is available. And am I not saying that it is illegal to charge for Bank Holidays, or that Childminders are not free to offer whatever terms they like (within the law).

What I am saying is that if you want to be fair and professional, only charge people for what you are prepared to provide.

sofewbraincellsleft, my apologies for hijacking your thread.

I think the only apologies due are mine: I started the argument, and I am sorry if this has caused offence to anyone including the original poster. In my defence, I did answer the original question which was how to add an effective rider to a contract.

so fewbraincellsleft said:
"Just popped back on here amid doing the mounds of paperwork - CHILDMINDING EYFS RELATED - IN MY OWN PRCIOUS TIME, AT THE WEEKEND (THAT I AM NOT PAID FOR) - not that you have irritated me in the slightest with your post MrAnchovey; hand goes up to mouth, big hawn. "

You sound as if you think you deserve to be paid for the EYFS work. But, it is not the parents who require you to do this. So who is it you think should pay for this work?

And I don't understand the comment about peanuts. In my local area a childminder costs £6.50 per hour. So if he/she has 3 children for say 50 hours per week that's £975 per week. More than £50k annually. That's not peanuts in my world. Perhaps you could do the EYFS while the kids nap? Are at school (when you probably still charge)?

I'm not defending EYFS as I don't think it's a good idea. But, I also don't think the parents are the ones who asked you to do it. So, you should really take this one up with the government.

AtheneNoctua

You said 'Perhaps you could do the EYFS while the kids nap? Are at school (when you probably still charge)?'

What a ridiculous comment - why wouldn't I still charge when my mindees are napping? Why would you assume that I charge when mindees at school? Incidentally, my mindees are all under 3.

'You sound as if you think you deserve to be paid for the EYFS work.'

Well what can I say; if that is your perception of what I said, so be it.

I din't comment one way or the other about charging during nap time. Of course you do (I assume). You are confusing two different sentences in my post.

And you sound very bitter about having to do EYFS paper work in time you perceive to be your own. You should take this up with the labour government by voting against them and their nanny state at the next general election.

You should just put up your rates and continue to use the NCMA contract, as Katymac suggested.

AtheneNoctua

I still don't get why you would think that childminders charge whilst children at school unless you meant pre-school?

Yes, I do begrudge having to undertake all my EYFS paperwork in my own time (apart from observations and photos); that is any time outside of 8am - 6pm, those being the hours I work. For me, it actually has nothing to do with wanting to be paid to do EYFS but is entirely that my time with my family/friends is very very precious to me. Like most other childminders, I do have a life outside of childminding, a very full one that does not leave time to incorporate EYFS related stuff but hey ho I'll plod on until I decide to give up childminding purely because of the demands of EYFS.

in response to nbee84 and the others who quote about the prices and the potential of what could be earned. The potential is IF you have all your spaces available (ie your own children aren't taking up a space)

And then of course by the time you have taken out your overheads and the many things that you may pay out for over the week/month you are actually earning very little in comparision to the amount of work put in. And then of course the non-paying parents..... [hmm} which screw up your own bills etc

I thought three was kind of a middle road sample actually. Are childminders only allowed to have 3 kids maximum?

I also thought that it was customary to charge a school age child for the full day since you can't fill that space with another child. But, perhaps this is not the case?

EYFS is nothing to with the parents, from whom you draw your fees. So, if you don't like doing EYFS you should speak to the people who require it of you. I persoanlly think it is crazy. Who cares if their 2 year old was assesed for whatever you assess for. Whe we used a childminder it was so my child could go to a loving environment where she could play and be cared for. Not so I could pay someone to do paperwork I'd rather she didn't do anyway.

But, I will also say that most businesses have overhead expenses and they adjust their rates to cover those overhead activities. For example I work in an IT/consulting environment. We spend a fair amount of time bidding work and managing our own internal affairs. We don't charge for this time. But we do charge a rate for our services that ensures we make enough money to cover our overheads. This is just part of running any business. If you don't want to run a business, I guess you should think about being a nanny. But then being someone else's employee also comes with some sacrifices.

Athene, Childminders can have 3 children under 5 and three children between 5 and 8 and as many over 8's as they feel they can accommodate.

An under 5 in school full time would count for Ofsted purposes as over 5. So as such a childminder would not charge a parent for a child that was in school full time.

I think that's what you're asking - hope this makes sense?

Personally I charge £5 an hour as I didn't want to ever feel like I wasn't being paid what I was worth - I can udnerstand why childminders begrudge doing X, Y and Z because they get paid "peanuts" and I never wanted to feel like that hence me having rates that are on par with nurseries in my area. But I offer better facilities than nurseries.

People in all professions have to enable themselves and prove why they are worth the extra or else they just have to put up with it and not begrudge their jobs.

This prob makes no sense as I'm really ill!

navyeyelash - we can't have as many over 8's as want - there are restrictions upon you such as insurance - NCMA insurance states that you can have upto 12 children (including your own and under 8's) total.
not sure about MM.

Athene - as far as I am aware, no its not customary (well in my area) to charge for a full day for school aged children. I don't know 1 childminder who does and I am a very active minder within the minding community. My own policy states though that IF I am required to be the emergency contact and first point of contact (ie for collection during the day) for that school aged child then I will consider that I am 'on call' and will negotiate a price for that.

Going back to the bank holiday thing - what everyone is forgetting, we (minders) are self employed. We can charge how we want.
I personally do not charge for any time off that I have or when I close the setting - for example my holidays, if my kids were ill and I closed, any time of for appointments etc. I however do charge for parents/child non attendance on a day that is contracted. I actually offer 2 'free' compassionate days per year.
For bank holidays - yes I charge and the way I got round it was - its normal rate if you do not require me to work but if you require me to work then it was xx amount per hour per contract - that was/is what I am willing to work for. That is the ONLY time off I charge for. Again it goes back to being self employed - I set my own terms and conditions.

EYFS - no parents do not require us to do it (many are also very appreciative of the work we put in though) but the government does. Nursery staff, school staff other types of settings get time during working hours to go and do their training etc. A minder doesn't, no-one pays us to do it and at the end of the day it depends what value each individual puts on their professional development and service. You can go and do the minimal amount of training needed and do EYFS satisfactorily - hence not tons of training. You reap what you sow - so to speak.
At the moment my kids and hubby are getting really sick of me being out on training this that or the other and I don't blame them BUT they also accept this is mums job that she enjoys very much and that also benefits them.

I do not spend hours and hours doing paperwork and what I produce it darned good, and more than adequate if I may say so myself! I also do not mind paperwork (apart from accounts.... hate them with a passion).

sorry will stop waffling now

oops forgot a bit - if us childminders actually added in all the bits that we do spend out on into our overheads and reflected that in our rates - then no.... we would be way to expensive!

As for the not caring about assessments - then let me tell you how it benefits our kids when applied in the right manner:

child a comes to me and she is a very bright child. nursery really upset mum by telling her about what the child can't do - in their opinion. Having this child for the amount of hours I do... I had concrete evidence (ue to the obs, planning and assessment that we have to do) that I could present to them and make their mouths hang down. I then also made them wonder why THEY weren't getting the best from this child.

two children (different families) referred via social services/community projects - in desperate needs of lots of tlc - speech severely delayed - EYFS has helped me chart their levels of attainment so far and its helped me plan where to take them next and how best to help them