What does it mean when a nanny has a salary against her on an agency list?

[SycamoretreeIsVile]

I'm interviewing at the moment. I'm just a bit confused as to whether anyone really pays the 9 to 10 pounds and hour that they all have next to their names?

I understand it's all a negotiation as with all jobs - if I don't offer that then I risk losing the one I want etc, but I'd just love to know if other families are paying those prices in London?

I had a fabulous nanny 3 years ago (the only one I've had before) and because I was so naive, as was the mum in my share family, we ended up paying our nanny, who had amazing experience and was in her mid 30's and is still with the other share family, 8.50 and hour. Were we just lucky she liked us/wanted the job/needed the job? She'd been out of work for a few months...

assuming that figure is gross not net, then that doesn't sound unreasonable for London. We were paying our nanny £10.50 per hour gross in Surrey a year ago. The market is different now of course, so I think you could offer a bit lower and see what they say - it is as you say a negotiation.

No, that's a net figure.....

Cosette - how old/experienced was your nanny for that salary, if you don't mind me asking

An agency list has salary indications on it? Is the agency not matching you with the most suitable candidates for the job... or is it the short list of those people that has the salary indications?

9 - 10 pounds gross per hour sounds a bit low to me for London... or are those NET figures?

Think you may have been very lucky that your previous nanny was only wanting 8.50.

Oh, Nannynick, I am so happy you have shown up on my thread

No, that's net....and previous nanny was 8.50 net - but that was nearly 4 years ago now.

Yes, one agency (of course the one with the cheapest fee) sent me a list of names with just a short paragraph on them underneath with their salary expectations against their names...

I then requested CV's from those that looked promising. Neither so far from that agency have been any good for us. Of course I have responded to the nanny from the more expensive agency.

I also have advertised on nannyjob - one coming for an interview but all others who applied were just bonkers people - it kind of put me off the site tbh

I'd say offer what you can afford, keep looking until you can match both nanny and affordable pay.

That's sage advice Cristina..but I don't have masses of time on my hands if I want to do a proper hand over...and I have found someone I do really like. I am now just wildly trying to guess at what money she would come to us for.

Agency have told me she's had two interviews since us and prefers us, should we offer her. I've expressed that we really, really like her but feel we need to finish the interview process with the other scheduled nannies.

My nanny was about 27, and had been nannying for about 6 years. She had no formal qualifications, but good references, and £10.50 gross was not her starting figure - she started on about £9 an hour gross.

If you end up paying £2 an hour more than you think you can, that works out as £2 X 40= £80 per week more, or £350 a month more. That's a LOT of extra money, worth negotiating for.

I know !!! That's why I'm posting - arrrghhhhhh!

Yes, one agency (of course the one with the cheapest fee) sent me a list of names with just a short paragraph on them underneath with their salary expectations against their names...

That's really bad... what a terrible agency. They don't seem to be doing any matching at all. In my view a good agency will suggest maybe 3 candidates from their books who would be a good match, check with those candidates that they are still looking for a job and are prepared to work at your location, for the salary range you are proposing, then arrange interviews.

I agree with Cristina, you do need to work out what salary you can afford to pay, including everything you can think of - such as Income Tax, National Insurance, Employers NI, payroll agency cost (if not doing it yourself), nanny activity/outings kitty, nanny mileage payments (if nanny uses their own car), additional food costs.

Pity nannyjob isn't turning up many suitable applicants.

I don't have masses of time on my hands if I want to do a proper hand over...

How long a handover are you planning? I hate long handover periods, one day should be enough... maybe even only a few hours.

I have found someone I do really like. I am now just wildly trying to guess at what money she would come to us for.

Great news... why are you trying to guess how much they want to be paid?
When they applied for the job, did they know what salary level to expect? Personally I hate applying for jobs where the salary is not indicated. Far prefer the job ad to say the salary, or give a range, than to leave ti all to negotiation.

Agency have told me she's had two interviews since us and prefers us

Sounds very promising, offer her the job. £12 gross per hour I expect may be about right... it's a bit more than I get but I'm a stones throw outside of the M25... so not London rate where I work.

I agree with nannynick that if you employ an experienced nanny there is no need for a long handover period. The longest handover I have had is 1 full day. My last few jobs have ranged from 1 hour to 4 hours.

Such helpful posts - thank you.

I really only mean, do I offer her the 9 or 10 pounds per hour net that I told the agency I would be prepared to pay.

I would only do a couple of days handover, but I meant my time was pressured because I start a new job 2nd week of October so I need to find someone before then, as I won't be able to take any days off in the first few weeks of a new job to do the handover.

But I would need, for my own peace of mind, at least that. I know a nanny is perfectly capable, but it's not just about her is it?! My DS has never had childcare outside his family and he's 2. I do not want him to feel like he's been abandoned with someone he has only known for one day. I think I'm allowed that one parental anxiety!

You won't be offering 9 or 10 pounds an hour net - regardless of what you told the agency.
You are a mumsnetter... you will offer a gross salary, so that later tax changes do not have a nasty sting in the tail. If you would like me to calculate the gross amount, I need to know the number of hours per week the nanny will be working.

Not sure how we can advise if you should be offering x amount or y amount. We don't know much about the applicant or the job. Even if we did know more about those things, still not sure how to judge it.
Given the way things are, offer the lower amount... if it is rejected then offer a bit higher.

With regard to handover - you don't really need to do much of a handover... you will need to give nanny and your DS space to get to know each other. So if you will be around for the first few days, then try to spend at least a few hours each of those days out and about doing something on your own. That way your DS sees you leave, and arrive back at the time he was told you would arrive back.

What I feel may be an issue though is the notice period candidates have on their existing jobs... some nannies may have a week's notice, others a month, others could be on 6 weeks, 2 months etc. What is the preferred candidates current job position... in work, out of work. If in work... do you know how much notice they need to give their current employer?

Based on a previous post about the hours you were looking at...

9 net, would be around 32,865.50 gross per year (12.05 gross per hour), with Employers NI gives cost to you of 36,376.50
10 net, would be around 36,855 gross per year (13.50 gross per hour), with Employers NI gives cost to you of 40,841

So that 1 pound difference net per hour, makes a difference of 4464.50 per year to you.

Could you contact your preferred choice nanny and ask them how much they want to be paid? If they said 10 per hour, you could then say that you were looking more at 12 per hour gross (32,800 a year). Then negotiate from there using gross figures, so perhaps going to 33k... 34k, 35k etc up to 36,800.

Nannynick, you really are a star.

If I could be so bold....we are considering two possibilities:

8.30 - 7pm 4 days a week
8.30 - 7pm 5 days a week.

We know the nanny will consider either 4 of 5 days.

It may be possibly that my mum will do the fifth day for us for free. So if you would be so kind I would love to know what I should be offering Gross on those two scenarios.

Should I be offering it as an annual salary, or as a gross hourly rate?

Given we are looking for a nanny share family down the line (all applicants also know this) then do I need to know what the gross salary would be at that point?

(pretty please can you work it out?)

I was going to offer her 11 p/h net for shared days.

I think I will need to offer her an gross hourly rate so it doesn't get crazily complicated to work out who pays what when the share family come into the equation.

In the contract, write it as a gross hourly rate. So for example:

Your usual working hours will be 8.30am to 7pm Tuesday to Friday which will be paid at £12.05 gross per hour.

If you were to agree a figure like 33,000 per year, then it would I feel be better to phrase it as:

Your usual working hours will be 8.30am to 7pm Tuesday to Friday which will be paid at £33,000 per annum.

You can then add a section with regard to overtime payments... such as agreeing to pay overtime at £12.50 an hour, or whatever rate you feel is sensible.

The figures I posted at 09:47 were for 5 days a week - 10.5 hours per day, thus 2730 hours per year.

4-Days per week figures:

10.5 hours per day, 2184 hours per year.
11.77 gross per hour, 25705.68 gross per year. Equates to 9 net per hour. Employers NI 2558.81 Cost to Employer therefore 28264.49 Calculations with help from ListenToTaxman.com

10.5 hours per day, 2184 hours per year.
13.22 gross per hour, 28872.48 gross per year. Equates to 10 net per hour. Employers NI 2964.16 Cost to Employer therefore 31836.64 With help from ListenToTaxman.com

Hi, I haven't followed the maths of it all, but just wanted to advise you to offer a gross salary in the contract. My nanny had never been offered a gross salary, so I said, well, if you are on the standard tax code of 647L for 2009/2010 then it equates to x per week. I promiaw you that it will be so much easier for you in the long run!

Btw, if you want to play around with different numbers, I would click on the following link: listentotaxman.com/

re pay: over past 3 years i (quals/exp) have got 10-12 netph dept on where in zone 2 london, but think full timers work out bit less. Can you ask what your old nanny gets now?

nannynick not sure hours you were using but did you factor in any tax free personal allowance in the net to gross figures? i'm getting confused.

Also wanted to add the reason i don't enjoy long hand overs is because it can disrupt intial forming of relationship with child e.g. if nanny feels the need to manically entertain or pick up child to keep them going to find hovering 'rescuing' parent, especially if doing duties like cooking.

Also dos and don'ts explained in front of child, sometimes as nanny is doing the don't or vice versa, can undermine nanny status for children in smal but significant ways from the very start.

Set the expectation that nanny just shadows mum for few hours to see her interaction/routine/rules and let children dictate when they go to her. Then mum could go off for few hours and let nanny weave her magic- maybe your nanny will have own suggestions anyway.

I don't think you really need to know the gross salary once it becomes a share at this point, as there could be various factors that influence how much you would pay. You don't know at this stage how many days/hours would be shared.

You should definitely agree the salary as a gross wage, as in a share situation the nannies personal tax allowance may be split between jobs or may be all allocated to one employer and not the other. Or both families may be joint employers. Oh it all gets a bit messy.

Oligo - tax allowance of £6475 is factored in. If the nannies personal tax allowance for 2009/10 is different to that, then the figures will need recalculating based on the nannies personal tax coding.

This net to gross thing is a real pain. Wish more nanny agencies would insist that all salaries were advertised as Gross. Then more nannies would with luck learn to ask about Gross salary, rather than net.

I advise everyone to only agree a Gross hourly or annual salary figure. That way you can do the payroll yourself if you feel so inclined. If you agree a Net salary, get a payroll company to do the payroll as they will have the software necessary to produce the correct net to gross calculations for every payroll run.

I should point out that all figures I have given on this thread are for information only. They must not be used for operating PAYE. Due to the nature of PAYE each time you run the payroll the figures could change a little.

Thanks NN - I intend to use nannytax in any case as (if you haven't noticed!) I have no head for figures and I think they provide an excellent service.

I think for so long agencies have used the net weekly figure as a way to calculate their own fees that they are probably reluctant to change.

That said, it does seem archaic...who else in the world gets their salary quoted to them net? I remember talking to my previous nanny about what she would do when she eventually applied for a mortgage and she was 35 years old and quite honestly had NO idea what her gross annual income was and therefore no sense at all of what kind of mortgage would be available to her.

Sigh.

Well gross is on payslips for mortgages/loans etc.

I do see from employers pov gross is easier but to come out earning a specific nph for each position, which is what i want and which allows easy and quick comparison b/w many jobs, all with different hours and days, i would need to work out different figures for every ad. that may or may not mention salary or specified hours, or end up in confused and protracted negotiaions with parents. From past posts think i'm in a MN minority though.

Oligo - Maybe it depends on your past work history. I haven't always been a nanny and when I got my first job after leaving college, a retail job, it was paid gross per hour as many retail jobs are.

If all nanny employers used Gross in their adverts, then you would be comparing gross v gross and could also compare it against jobs in other sectors, even in childcare sector such as nursery work.