One baby, one on the way - please help re: current nanny!

[freudianslips]

Our daughter is a year old and we're due to have another baby in Spring 2010. DD has been cared for very ably by our nanny, S, since she was 6 months old. However, the arrival of the new baby (DD will be 18 months old) is going to change things and I would love some advice on the best way to broach this with S.

I will be off work til DD is 24 months and new baby is 6 months. However, we can't afford to send DD to nursery full time AND pay S's full-time salary to look after the new baby. Because she is an experienced, older nanny she is already right at the top of the payscale in terms of what we can afford to pay her.

Is it reasonable to ask whether she would want to look after both children at once? I don't know whether nannies ever do this ... or whether many of them would want to. Furthermore, I don't know whether she would want paying more for taking on another child and if so how much it would be appropriate to offer her.

If she refuses, it will sadly be a matter of trying to find another nanny who would take both children at once (if anyone would!) or putting DD into nursery / childminder whilst finding another, cheaper (!) nanny to take care of the new baby. But I would feel dreadful letting S down like that ...

How on earth do I raise these issues without S feeling like I'm trying to blackmail her into taking on duties she does not want? I must admit she is our first nanny and a few friends have commented that she seems to be very assertive about her wants and needs, which I do my best to work around e.g. she generally doesn't take on overtime unless I give her a couple of months notice, and even then she has cancelled at the last minute. So the 'power' dynamic is a bit messed up to begin with!!

Thank you in advance for any advice or ideas.

Eeek ..

Thanks everyone, I've just shown DH this thread and it's given us loads to think and talk about as we plan our next step. I'm definitely not a troll (!!!) and it's very embarrassing to me that my situation actually seems so extreme as to be fallacious.

I have clearly been a bit lot foolish about not setting out expectations sooner, partly because I (believe it or not) didn't actually know that most people's nannies did these things as well as childcare. So, in other words, these are expectations that I have only recently learned that I should hold.

I should also clarify that S has been very willing to pick up nappy wipes etc. when we run low and does generally leave the nursery and living room looking as she found it. She does not wash up after DD but I have never asked her to do so. DD only naps for an hour a day, generally whilst S is driving her to/from somewhere, so it doesn't leave loads of time for chores. I also have tended to have the bottle washing, sterilising etc. done before she arrives so maybe she feels I don't need the help - add in the fact that she was a bit wary of dealing with my expressed breast milk and I guess it is a chore I have automatically taken charge of. She has mentioned that she used to cook meals for her previous (older) charge but that she did so in one big batch whilst the child was in nursery (two days a week) and also did ironing during that time. I'm not saying any of these things to try and make excuses for her, more to try and show that she does show willing and maybe I have put her in a position of feeling that she does not need to do this stuff.

Thinking about it now, a big part of her reluctance to do household chores (apart from feeling like it's not expected) is also probably due to her aversion to the kitchen (where the aforementioned and still-feared labrador lives) - in which sink, fridge, washing machine etc. also live. This worries me because as DD gets older I really DO expect (and the contract actually states) that she should prepare fresh food for DD at lunchtime.

Oh eek, just noticed that thread has gone to 2 pages. Just going to post this reply and then will come back and answer anything that crops up ...

Oh, just to add that apart from preparing food for DD we foolishly did not include anything about nursery duties in the contract. As I mentioned before, I didn't know I was meant to expect it (if that makes sense).

Don't worry we all make mistakes in the early days ,it sounds to me as if the dog is a huge problem,and given that presumably she knew you had a dog when she accepted the post I am surpised she accepted,I also think that ,assuming you are keeping the dog,you need to think whether she is the nanny for you because she clearly does not fit into your lifestyle,with a toddler and a newborn she will have to be confident in the kitchen where the dog is and also be able to deal with the relationship between dog and children.I can't imagine having someone looking after my children who was frightened of our dog because the dog is also part of the family dynamic ,also imagine if she passed that fear onto one of the children.

A contract review is the perfect time to reinforce the expectations you have and build new ones in then. Naturally the job description will change with DC2 coming along and your DD getting older anyway.

Is there anything you can do about the dog situation?

Personally I wouldn't take a position where the family had a dog as I really don't like them (bad experience as a child) so I do wonder what she was thinking if she knew you had a dog. It's not setting a good example to your DD if she's shrinking from it in terror and won't go in the kitchen.

Was this aforementioned Labrador in your family before S was recruited? If so, then why did you hire a nanny who was scared of dogs? What qualitie(s) did this nanny offer which other applicants (who liked dogs) did not offer? The dog issue I feel is quite a big one... you can't really have an employee who won't go in a room, particularly a room that is frequently used (sometimes the kitchen is the heart of the home). If this nanny can't get over the dog phobia... then I feel you need to look at finding a new nanny who likes dogs, whom your dog likes - a nanny who will take DD and your dog on a trip to the park.

You say that she show's willing. Does she show inititive? Is she keen to learn new things?

Not sure why driving your DD around leaves little time for chores. Are chores not factored into the day's plan?
I use the word plan loosely as I'm the type of nanny who doesn't really plan far in advance, preferring to fulfil the more instantaneous desires of a pre-school child where possible - for example a child wants to sit in a helicopter, so we find a place we can do that. The plan I had at the start of that day was to let the oldest child suggest somewhere to visit... so quite a loose plan! As your DD gets older, you will want to either let her influence what things she does during the day, or dictate to her the things she will be doing - the choice is yours... I prefer letting children make choices, let them come up with ideas, as sometimes they will come up with something which I wouldn't have thought of, and the child will enjoy that activity plus learn from it.

Back to chores though... before going out on an outing, things need to be done at home first. Sometimes I'm bad at that, I'll admit... but I do try to get some things done, such as checking the beds and making them... if dishwasher is nearly full then hunting around for things to add and putting that on. Putting a wash load on. Getting snack/drink/nappies etc ready in the day-bag and if going on an outing where I envisage lunch will be needed, then I'll make lunch to take with us.
Those things take time, perhaps an hour. Toddlers like to help with some things. Toddlers will play by themselves for a bit, they may watch TV (if you permit that). As your DD gets older, she will be able to play more independently thus freeing up some time for your nanny to do chores.

As Floaty says, first time employers of nannies will often make mistakes along the way. It is a steep learning curve and as you have read / will read on this section of Mumsnet, issues arise from time to time so parents and nannies ask for advice. We all need help from time to time, so it is great that you have posted such a lot so far about your experience with this nanny and are asking us for our opinions.

I am however wondering why you didn't know very much about what duties nannies usually do when you recruited S - because if you didn't know, then there must be other parents out there in a similar position.
Did you use an agency, or recruit privately yourself? Did you read any books about nannies?

It does sound like the dog is a big problem - did she know about the dog before she took the job?

My little charge sleeps only about an hour a day after lunch, but that still gives me enough time to mop the floor or do the ironing. All the other chores - washing up, cooking, laundry - can be done with the baby around. I do think though that babies/children don't need to be out at organised activities all day every day, and sometimes it's good for them to be at home involved in domestic activities or even just amusing themselves for a bit. That's one of the big advantages of a nanny over a nursery in my opinion. I also think children get much better quality sleep at home in their own beds rather than out and about.

Thanks for the continued input - more stuff to think about. Felt pretty upset last night that I've managed to get us into this situation and a bit desparate about getting us out. I'm honestly not a fool in most spheres of my life - I'm 95% of my way to a PhD! As my mum frequently points out to me though, intelligence does not equal sense.

I typed out a big post at work today but lost it whilst trying to post, so here's an abridged version.

1. Yes, she did know about dog when interviewing for job and said that she would need a little time to get used to it but that she would be fine after then. We made sure she met the dog before she accepted the job.

1. We chose her despite the dog thing because she was the most qualified, most experienced applicant with 12 years of glowing references which we followed up. She also had more experience with young babies than any other applicant.

1. We met her via a large local agency with a good reputation.

She and DD seem to do quite a lot of structured activities most of which involve driving to various places - today they went to baby gym in the morning then to another nanny's house in the afternoon. S informed me that she spent DD's 1.5 hour nap eating her sandwich. The travelling around IS costing me quite a bit in petrol.

It's odd. Today was the first day that I didn't feel unreasonable for feeling cross at the row of dirty milk bottles lined up on DD's high chair or the washing up in the sink. I just REALLY don't think that S will want the kind of job that emerges from the changed job description. And that makes me sad because DD had clearly had a rip-roaring good time today...

Forgot to add (for nannynick): i felt like i'd done quite a bit of research when recruiting S and I talked to a number of agencies before settling on the one that we did. I was up to speed on the need for all the basics like CRB, first aid, Ofsted reg eligible etc. and also up to speed on the employment law and tax stuff. However I just truly neglected to think about the non-childcare elements of having a nanny. No-one at the agency mentioned them other than in passing "you won't expect her to do any ironing or things like that will you?" - and like a fool I said NO, because I didn't want her to do things that would distract her from DD. Of course I know now that it's possible to do both things well, but I didn't then.

Not doing laundry or preparing meals if you've always done it I can understand - I've worked for mothers who have preferred to do those things themselves for practical reasons or because they follow very particular diets etc. Not washing up though is a bit mind-boggling - how lazy!

The pregnancy/new baby seems like quite a natural point to renegotiate things though. You will be more tired so obviously the nanny needs to take over nursery duties; you are budgeting more carefully and reducing the nanny kitty and amount of petrol you want to pay.

Hopefully you and your nanny can come to an agreement about your expectations - but even if she does choose to leave, your DD is young enough that she'll adjust to a new nanny much quicker than you imagine.

S informed me that she spent DD's 1.5 hour nap eating her sandwich.

Seriously? No wonder you felt annoyed. I nanny for two children, plus my ds, all under 5. I don't have any specific nursery duties but usually in a day I will:
Cook lunch, sometimes breakfast too
Wash up and tidy dishes (including some of last nights dishes!)
Make the beds
Sort out washing
During my youngest charge's nap today I sorted out all the toys, dug them out from under beds/sofa etc, finished washing up, wiped down the kitchen sides and I still had ds who wanted attention and time to spare before she woke up an hour later!

None of these things I consider to be unreasonable and I do them mostly because I created the mess so I clear it up. It's just general tidiness

I also work with a dog, and while they're not my favourite animals, we've come to an understanding

I do think you need to reassess your nannys role in your family and what duties you need her to do, especially with a new baby on the way. If she isn't willing to take on her new duties then I think you'll need to look for someone else

Thanks freudianslips - from what you say I think the agency didn't help you as much as they could have done. As you were a first time nanny employer, I would have expected the agency to talk to you about all aspects of having a nanny.

You choose S for the right reasons, the baby experience, the 12 years of previous nanny work, great references. Also I suspect that she is very reliable.

But requirements do change over time and the nanny should be able to adapt to those changes. So having a review and making amendments to the duties is I feel expected from time to time. If your nanny wants to keep the job, then they will be prepared to do the new duties, or at least try to negotiate a compromise where they do some of the new duties.

said that she would need a little time to get used to it [the dog]
Well it's been a little time now... so either she is happy to be around the dog (and dog happy to be around her), or she isn't.

I second risingstar post.

You could put your DD into nursery and find a new nanny 6 months later?

If she is that experienced taking on another child should be no problem.

Of course she should look after both children. You don't need to increase her pay that much but I don't know if you need a new contract.

can i just add that, from experience, keeping a nanny when you know it isn't really working because your children are happy and you don't want to disrupt them is a mistake. once you've made the change, your children will still be happy (after a surprisingly brief transition) and you will be so much happier that you will look back and wonder why you put up with such rubbish.

i've been there, done that and got the tee shirt - and it was my first nanny too.

also been there got the t-shirt.
I am really really shcoked by your nanny's attitude , if she is experienced she would know what "nursery duties" are and know full well she is supposed to clear up after your dd, wash her clothes, tidy etc etc.
she is laughing at you ( as our anny did) and we also got stung for huge amounts of mileage as our nanny took dd2 out and about, turned out they did all her shopping, often went back to her house so she coudl do her washing etc and seemed to spend a lot of time visiitng other peoples houses when the whole point of having a nanny is that your LO gets to have naps/meals etc in thier own home . we trie dthe little chats and everything was fine for a week or so and then it all slid again. GET RID and get yourself a proper nanny

I am a nanny and I currently look after 2 children-4.9yrs and 2.5yrs old.Mb is pregnant with number 3,due next mth.I have been with the since the oldest was 8mths.
So this family have now(almost) added 2 more children since I have started.I have also had 2 previous families that added children while I was employed.
My current family and my last family increased my pay.I didnt demand/expect this and wouldnt of been upset if they hadnt increaswed wage.A nanny charges per family not per child(unless nanny share)
Your nanny is lazy i.e dishes and lacks initiative i.e nursery duties.I do all nursery duties and will do extras for my bosses.To me I like to make sure everything is done so that my employers can relax during their time with the kids.I work 8-6:30 mon-fri.While your nanny may not get have the most fantastic wage she has cushy hours