Think childminder may be ripping me off? HELP

[allgonebellyup]

Our childminder insists that, even though i only work term time, that i should pay her all through the holidays so that equals 13weeks per year at full price.

She then went on a holiday with her mates for a week during term time (ie when i needed her) and insisted that i still paid her for the whole week, as she is still "entitled to holiday". So i paid for this week as well as the 13 other weeks.

Is this right??

Are you being intentionally obtuse? i wasn't intending to imply that i KNEW her income, tax or NI. Of course i do not. What I am wondering is whether a CM, for business purposes, would take a view on holiday periods if she had 3 children full time from one family. bearing in mind that CMs can take only a limited number of children in any event it is safe to assume, surely, that he/she would obtain a good proportion of her CM income for one source in these circumstances.

If you do not have any useful contribution might I suggest you cock off with your irritating, pointless, middle-class witterings.

Jonesy

You probably need another thread, but ....

3 children from the same family is more risky to me than 3 children from different families.

Personally I would charge you for all the time I am available. If you choose to take holidays at a different time to me, then you would still be charged for my availability.

Sorry.

Jonesy, middle class witterings
dont post on a public forum if you do not want answers from the public
And certainly do not tell me to remove myself from your thread,....idiot.

3 children from one family, I agree is too risky. You would lose all 3 in one o, very hard to replace and then have 3 new starters all at once - unfair on the new starters and the c/m.

I know many childminders who don't like f/t for the same reason, it is easier to fill a p/t place, and less loss of income if a child leaves.

I don't do discounts for siblings and treat each individual mindee on exactly the same terms, so would expect full rates.

Agree with HSMM I don't like multiple siblings, been there done that, you can only have so many mindees, many cm's are restricted as they have their own children so need to maximise income where they can.

God I'm too soft but then I'm a new CM. I do term-time only as I can't take holidays in term-time.
Therefore I'm never available in the holidays and don't work bank holidays. On the other hand I don't expect to be paid for Bank holidays.
But if for some reason the parents did take a holiday in term-timem then they would have to pay me in full.
Every CM is different, you need to have a look around and ask for a copy of their fees policy.

Im a childminder and i dont charge for amy holidays taken by myself or parents. I know a lot of childminder do charge full price for parents holidays a half price for childminders holidays. I (as a childminder myself) think that they are ripping the parents off and childminders should only be paid for the hours actually worked. But thats just me

Hayley,

You only think CM should charge for the hours they work?
What about if the parent rings you at drop off time to cancel, or just does not turn up.Would you expect not to be paid?
And what if thee contract was for a full time place. You would budget your families finances on that amount of money, perhaps taking out a mortgage etc. Then what if the child had 2 parents with 5 weeks holiday each a year, and then some helpful grandparents also with 5 weeks holiday a year.
You might only end up looking after the child 30 weeks a year, or less. That would drastically reduce your income.
How would you cope with that? That is why we have contracts in place, we are contracted to provide a place and they are contracted to pay.

allgonebellyup

If your contract states you pay her 52 weeks per year, then that is what you have to do.

If you do not have a contract (which it seems you do not), then you only have to pay her when she cares for your child.

You MUST get a contract if you do not have one. If you want to change CM to put an end to this, then you should give your contractual notice (or no notice in the absence of a contract).

All CMs negotiate their own rates with parents when a child starts and do not even have to have the same terms and conditions for all the children in their care.

HAYLEY, I dont charge fo my holidays or sickness, never have bloody either anyway!! but I have to charge parents for theirs or I am not running a business model needed to pay my bills. How do you plan your income/ outgoings on such shifting sands.

To the op, as has been said ad nauseum, if you signed a contract to agree these terms then basically tough... if you didnt sign anything then why not? seems a bit cavalier to me!!

Surely the most important contract you sign concerns your kids doesnt it.. caviat emptor!!

Maybe I have misunderstood this, but it seems a bit as though some CM want to have their cake and eat it. On the one hand they want to be self-employed and determine their own rates of pay, hours of work, hand pick clients, etc. On the other hand, they are expecting to be treated as employees in terms of being paid for holidays on the basis of this being some kind of 'entitlement'.

I can't understand why they don't do like any other business, and work out their overheads, calculate the number of hours they want to work, and come up with a formula that involves a slightly higher hourly rate but which effectively incorporates sick pay and holiday pay. Obviously there will need to be a contractual arrangement with parents to ensure a degree of business continuity, but this would avoid many disagreements of the type described here. That's what private music teachers do, for example.

I think you have misunderstood Boffinmum. I don't know of any childminders who view any part of their income as "some kind of entitlement" - it is all earned, regardless of whether it is presented as worked hours plus so much paid leave allowance or as a higher hourly or weekly rate without any paid leave as you suggest. Childminders offer a service; the terms are negotiated with the parent/client and should be recorded in the contract. It is completely up to the childminder whether they charge for holidays, meals, outings, whatever...and completely up to the parent whether they accept and sign up to those terms. It's simply not true that all other buisnesses have the same charging model or method - you wouldn't dream of telling your hairdresser or dentist or driving instructor how, what or when they should get paid, you just go elsewhere if you don't like what they propose, so why do you think it is in order to try to dictate how they childminders run their business? And would you expect them to offer different charging methods to suit individual parents' preferences?

The only way out of this OP is to attempt to renegotiate contract (and why would she?) or find another childminder. I have sympathy with her in that there is no reason why she should receive nothing for school holidays - she could theoretically find an all year round mindee instead - but this time and a half business is loony. 7.50 an hour is more than most nurseries (not that they are superior, just different, but just shows you for comparison).

My CM charges 3.50 per hour. She takes 2 weeks holiday per year for which I am not charged. Any holidays I want to take are charged at half time as long as she gets recquisite notice otherwise I pay full rate (can't remember how much notice, am crap at doing so so end up not giving notice and just paying - my fault not hers). If she is ill she doesn't charge (she is never ill).

Im a co childminder(with my husband) and we run a professinal business where the contract is designed for mutual benefit.If a parent only wants term time that is what they pay for, if they want all year around that is what they pay for. They do not pay for my holidays, but pay for theres. Unlike other business with staff who do get paid minumum wages with holiday pay most childminders do not..yes this is our decision but I feel this goes hand in hand with our profession, which frankly is still seen as second class compared with a Nursery, which is all wrong, we get inspected(more if you are on the Network)plan the day using the same guidance but we offer lower ratios, more consistancy and are cheaper.
Sadly some parents feel they can abuse this situation. I also think that the discussions on here about childminders would not be taking place if it where Nurseries the mother had problems with.

Hi, in reflection it should all be stated in your contract. Im sorry but this childminder seems to be making the rules up! I have clear policies and procedures which are given to all parents at the commencement of contracts and they are given my holidays a year in advance.
Many of my mums and dads take there time off when I do, so they do not pay and get to save money/vouchers/tax credits, this is their business. I like to feel they know where the are with my services. I have had parents pretend that they do not know when my holidays are (I give a yrs notice and also write a monthly newsletter with date reminders) and had one turn up three days after I got married, the same mother also refused to pay for contracted hours and had a tantrum when I gave her notice. I hear so many horror stories about bad childminders and feel for parents who are trying to find a genuine carer, so my advice is always read their OFSTED report, what training they have and things like their daily risk assessments,routines, curriculum plans, menus,and take up references!

hi i am a childminder and i work out my fees for the full year and divide it by the 12months so i get paid the same all year round whether i am on holiday or the child is. i charge half fee for my annual leave an full for bank holidays therefore parents are charged 48weeks full and 4 half this is all worked out and divided between the 12months. i also would charge for 3 till 6 for an afterschooler even if they did leave at 4 as they are still taking a space and stopping me taking someone else on who would use and pay for the 3 hours. i have recently added a free week when working out the yearly fee so parents actually only pay 47weeks full fee 4 half and 1 free split over the 12months this is incase i take any sick days but have actually one had 1 in 6 years. at the end of the day i have the same monthly bills to pay regardless of whether children attend or not . i think if i had a teacher i would charge half fee for holidays but work it out for the year and divide it by the 12months so i get paid the same all year round. plus alot of parents get tax credit to pay childcare therefore if there childminder is on holiday and they dont need to pay there are therefore keeping the money to themselfs and defrauding in a way.

Xox, I think that's the sort of model I had in mind - other businesses also work out their costs and amortise it over the whole year to take into account holidays and so on.

Hence my milkman doesn't land on my doorstep arguing his 'entitlement' to holidays, nor does my dentist, hairdresser or accountant, because this is all a business related issue that has already been properly factored in. The consequence is that the heaviest users of a service pay most towards the overheads, which is as it should be. Otherwise I would probably be paying for a month's milk during August that didn't arrive, and paying for theoretical dental checkups and hairdos I never had.

The OP seems to be paying a disproportionate amount towards overheads in this instance, thanks to a flawed accounting model IMO.

ok scanning this thread quickly it sounds like you do not have a contract {which is very odd}

i am a c/m and this is how i work -

if i have a term-time only contract i would charge a retainer to keep the mindee's space available - typically this would be at half-rate

i take four weeks holiday per year this is at full rate - i try to make this at a time convienient to both parties.

the parent may take an extra 4 weeks holiday this is at half-rate.

i charge half-rate for bank holidays.

i discuss my terms and conditions at our first meeting - i give the parents a copy of my T&C to take away and read.

we sign a temporary contract when minding begins.

when we are both happy with things and child is settled we sign a "proper" contract.

i think if you have no signed contract you can walk away with no notice. if you are not happy you should find another childminder. But i don't think she is ripping you off.
good luck.

£7:50 is ridiculous, but when you have time off you get paid (if you work) your employer will have pay someone else to do your job as well.
I have said on here that I add up all my fees and divide by 52 (maybe it was the thred about this thred). Its easier for both parties as everyone knows where they stand, parents don't have to save for holidays or keep ringing tax credits lots of CMs do this but some parents still seem to have a problem with paying us on our week off even if its a week after the six week holidays and they actually owe me money because they pay the fixed rate.

AGBU

You could be me! I have just has exactly the same for after school . I objected to paying her all the school hols which I don't need and bank hols etc so she gave us notice.

I feel daft as I should have got out the minute she started as she is obviously more intered in money than the kids.

I am self employed and it maked me mad that these 2 CM think they can have all the benefits of employment and all the perks of s/e.

The english CM association actually advises cm NOT TO GET PAID FOR bh AS then they look like employed to the taxman. but they just keep asking for them so soon someone will complin to the tax authorities and they will shoot themsleves in the foot.

I paid all the school holidays but any future CM if I bother I will insist on a term time contract.

We pay up front for the month (total yearly price divided by 12) and then get an actual invoice advising any extras (if we are late etc.) or any deductions.

We pay if we don't use her because one of us is sick on we're on holiday etc, but we don't pay if we don't use her because she is sick or on holiday...

Being self-employed

Charging for bank holidays

Q The new NCMA contracts state that I must be available to work bank holidays if I am to charge for them. Why is this?

A Most childminders are self-employed and it is not commonplace for self-employed persons to be paid for days when they are unavailable to work. As such, the previous arrangements of childminders charging for bank holidays, but not being available to work, created the possibility of the contractual relationship being viewed as unfair. To prevent this, the contracts were changed.

If your childminding service is available on a bank holiday, but the parent does not wish to use your service, it would only be right that the parent pays you. This is the same arrangement as if their child is ill or they choose not to use your service. If, however, your service was closed and the parent wanted childcare, they would be required to find alternative care for the bank holiday. It would not be fair on the parent to request that they pay twice.

Essentially, you are free to negotiate the terms of the contract with parents. If you are required to work bank holidays it would be normal for you to negotiate an increased fee. Alternatively, one way for you to keep your bank holidays to yourself would be to book them as holidays. These would come out of your annual entitlement, but you would be entitled to receive payment for these days as normal holiday.