I think I may need to change from nursery to nanny.

[TheYearOfTheCat]

My 2 DC are at a day nursery 2 days a week. We had previously had a fantastic nanny, who left to have a family, and after a her disastrous replacement, we opted for day nursery.

They have both been there for a year, although I really think my DS (2) is very unhappy there. In the last few weeks, my DS has been both the perpetrator and victim of various incidents, scratching etc (he was previously very placid), and within the last couple of days has also developed a very pronounced stammer.

I heard some very concerning role play between my 2 DC at the weekend, where my DD was shouting at my DS to 'go to sleep, she didn't have time to rub his back, and if he didn't go to sleep right now she was going to phone his Mummy and she would be really cross'.

I asked my DD if the teachers at nursery said that and she said they did.

I know that nursery may not be to blame for these issues, but my gut feeling is that I need to change my childcare choice for him. I just hate the thought of him being unhappy. I equally hate the thought of having to go through the whole recruitment / induction palarvar.

Any advice?

I think gut feeling always wins out with these decisions. couple of years ago, we decided against putting my ds1 (then 9mo) into the local early years centre 3 days/week after one particular incident and a nagging feeling that it wasn't somewhere we wanted him to be. We had already taken him out of my work nursery, a commute into London, but put him back on the waiting list and, most fortunately, he got back in. He and ds2 are now 3.5 and 1.5 and both at the nursery 3 days/week, very settled and content, which makes the commute with them worthwhile.

As I say, even if you can't quite put your finger on something, I think you know what you think is right.

If you think your DS is unhappy then you either have to talk very seriously to the nursery or you have to move him, and your DD. What your DD said is very concerning. Noone should be speaking to a child like that when they are supposed to be caring for them. But you know this surely? The recruitment process is tedious, tiring and time-consuming of course - but worth it for your DCs' happiness.

OMG

thats awful.

are ypou anywhere near me in hampshire? im currently looking for 2 days a week

agree you need to move your children now, thank god for role play or you would have never have known

no nursery should shout at children like this, and nor should nannies, cms etc

I would def speak to the nursery head

the cattle market approach is one of the reasons i personally dont like nurseries, though of course you get good ones as well as bad, just as you do with any childcare - good and bad!!

where are you based?

Wow, that's horrible, what concerns me the most is the role play, because kids roleplay what they see and hear for themselves! I'd [semi-]understand if it were a one off thing but to be honest, if it were a one off wouold a child then go and replicate that as usually they copy the norm in an effort to learn about social situations etc.

How can anyone treat a child so young like that? (or a child at all!)

Get your kids out of there.

OMG ! shocking

i would be removing my child/ren ASAP

Just wanted to add my support really. Dd1 went to a fantastic nursery, but very things changed (staff changes and other big changes) when dd2 started there.

I witnessed (and reported) an incident of a child being handled quite roughly and spoken to unpleasantly. That rocked my confidence massively. Then dd2 started to become very very unsetttled and distressed (she was around 16 months at the time.) It still upsets me now.

Imo once your confidence has gone or you have niggling worries about any form of childcare, then you need to move your dc.

6 months on and my dd2 is very settled and happy with a new cm.

Thanks for the responses. I know I need to remove them both. There is a 2 month notice period in the nursery, but TBH if I got something sorted before then, I would take them out ASAP. I will make an appt to see the manager this week and give notice.

Can anyone recommend a good nanny / CM in Belfast?

I think in your position I would be discussing with the nursery that there are grounds for not having to give 2 months notice. From your op it sounds like you are only having to remove the dcs due to major concerns.

I would speak to the nursery about the concerns (if you haven't already). If they seem disinterested then strongly consider taking this further.

My blood ran cold when I read this. My children would be pulled out of a nursery if this happened and I would be straight into the manager's office, and possibly in contact with OFSTED as well. There is no way I would respect a notice period if my children were experiencing verbal or physical abuse, even if it meant threatening the place with a lawyer. Nurseries thrive on having a good local reputation, so this would have currency.

v good point Boffinmum

I agree with the others that you need to speak to the nursery manager. Best case is that there is just one staff member who is not coping and if that is the case the manager needs to know.
You will learn a lot from the way the manager responds to your concerns. If they brush them aside then you know that there are big problems there that go beyond on e staff member. This sort of treatment should never be acceptable.

good luck!

I'm a nanny but currently doing temp work in a nursery. I've seen how the children are put down to sleep in the afternoon and unfortunately it is something like how your child described. That's not to say that all nurseries are like that but where I'm at there are 3 adults putting 15 children down for a sleep. They go round to each child and pat their backs to get them to sleep but if some children are wriggling or not co operating there are a lot of threats and raised voices. On one side it's not all their fault as the ratio of children to adults is so high they can't give each child the attention they need and are on a schedule to have all the children sleeping by a certain time to move on to the next activity.
Again with any spitefulness from other children, biting, scratching etc the adults can't be everywhere at once and see everything going on so things are over looked and children get hurt.
I always think nanny is best if you can afford it as you are getting complete one to one attention for your children, but it could be a case of just moving nurseries and monitoring any change as your child may feel more settled at another nursery and have less problems sleeping at nap time.

i also temped in a nusery (3 days was enough)

and most are the same, all children get laid down on a thin matress and in a dim room,told to go to sleep,some pat their backs,others dont

to be fair if a child goes from a young age, they get used to it,but i am sure many children dont wantto sleep, some of their peers are heavy breathers/snoreres and i prob wouldnt be able to sleep in that room

that's what i didn't / don't like about nurseries..

all are lined up and fed at the same time,and put down for naps

regardless of whether sleepy / hungry! etc

My son went to the college nursery for 2 days when he was 16 months old
of course he was used to his routine, and so to go from that ,to sleeping with lots of other children at the same time / same room just wasn't going to happen !!

he ended up napping in a buggy

I ended up taking him out and my mum had him one day and a CMer the other day,where he napped in a travel cot

Mine were OK with the communal naps, but they were used to it from babyhood I think. Plus by this age, each child had a little mattress of their own and their own blankie with a picture on it (the same as the picture on their personal potty and their coat peg), and the staff made the room quite cosy, and put relaxing music on, etc, which tbh would have sent me right off to sleep, never mind the kids! Can't say any of the kids seemed traumatised.

If they didn't settle they were allowed to go out and play, and if they wanted a nap at different times they were allowed to go off and do that, and there were enough staff around for someone to keep an eye on them. Same with meals - they could have little snacks between meals if they asked, things like fruit or breadsticks.

Had it not been like this, I would have been very worried about sending the kids there.

PS Our nursery was run by the parents, and I wonder if this makes a difference in the approach?

Sounds like it, I've never come across that approach in private day nurseries.

It was professionally staffed, but run by a management committee of parents. I suppose if you remove the profit margin, then that frees up a crucial portion of funding, that might pay for an extra supernumary member of staff, allowing more personalised care, perhaps.

your nursery sounds lovely boffin mum

i have never come across one run like that

the ones i know ALL have to sleep at same time,and def not allowed to go and play, or have snacks outside snack time

It was lovely Blondes. Email me at boffinmum at hotmail dot co dot uk and I will tell you which one it is, if you like. Although they did have one bizarre practice. The little ones (under twos) slept outdoors (if it was 3 degrees or over) in massive old Silver Cross prams bundled up to the nines like little Innuit babies, parked under a special canopy, as a 1930s style health thing (which worked - the kids seemed to have very few colds and coughs compared to the kids at the previous nursery we used).

The older ones did all sleep together on their little mats in the biggest room, with the New Age music on, and obviously they weren't encouraged to run around or it would have been chaos and they would have got overtired, but it was possible for a child to have a more bespoke timetable if they would have been distressed otherwise. I certainly can't envisage any of the staff speaking to the children like the OP described here. The staff were so kind, and we are in touch with some of them even now, four years on (they are having their own kids now).

Regarding food, having read the research on little children in nurseries, it is supposed to be a mark of good practice to have healthy snacks available on request, and water, otherwise small children can get distressed and start being a bit greedy and dysfunctional about meals, as they are not sure whether their individual physical needs will be met. Nurseries shouldn't be too much like schools, and bodies cannot and should not be completely controlled in the name of bureaucratic order.

Well we have notified the nursery by letter that we will be removing both DC, but I haven't spoken to the manager yet.

I feel so relieved that my DH (for once) has supported me in my decision to remove them. I have a couple of avenues of potential contacts to investigate, otherwise I will advertise in the local newspaper. Failing that, I will need to consider long term parental leave / career break.

Well done TYOTC - you've definitely done the right thing, because even though most of the chat here revolved around the sleep, the fact that your DS has started stammering, and scratching is also a worrying sign that he was unsettled and the environment probably didn't suit him. I have heard that girls get along better in nursery from a young age than boys, so it is interesting that you didn't write about any behaviour changes from your DD.
Good luck with finding alternative childcare!